The Debate: Do JW's Need Respect?

by Mindchild 85 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Mindchild

  Responses to the Defense

  The Defense said:

  I must ask this question. Does their actual knowledge, or lack of knowledge, of the organizations bad qualities affect their culpability?

  I would like to remind the court that in some established legal cases, there does not have to be criminal intent for culpability. People can be found culpable for making poor decisions. A common example of this is a bartender that gives someone who is obviously drunk, more alcohol at his or her request. The bartender may not know the circumstances of the individual, but he or she should clearly know that being totally drunk puts an individual at risk to themselves and at others. If such an individual who is drunk goes out of the bar and drives home and ends up killing someone, the bartender shares the blame for his or her failure to show good judgment.

  Applying this same analogy to individuals in congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses, we might therefore reason that say an elder who is aware of a dangerous policy in the congregation (for example the child abuse issue or sheltering pedophiles) that exists because of Watchtower policy and ideology, then that person should share the disgust and revulsion of sensible people who abhor such anti-life policies. An elder should step down or at least actively fight such organizational wrongdoing to avoid being similarly culpable.

  One can also extend this same principle to rank and file members of the Witnesses who may be totally ignorant of these policies and would likewise be shocked to discover these atrocities. Such individuals are not culpable in the same way because of due innocence. However, when they do become aware of the wrongdoings of the WTS, and yet they remain with it and actively support it, not only are they culpable they are hypocritical as well. A high price to pay if you ask me.

  Skipper
• 

  Venice

  The court is now in session. (where's the balif)

  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Before we begin looking at the Witnesses, let's keep in mind that there are many organizations that do many good things for people but are still involved in scandals concerning how people are treated, how the money is handled and the ethics/motives of the leaders. Some that come to mind are, The Salvation Army, The United Way, Unicef, The Red Cross...etc. Do we withhold our respect from these organizations and ignore the good that they do because there is some corruption? That of course is a personal decision but most people respect these organizations for the good that they are attempting to do in spite of the controversy.
  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  My objection is that the WTS is suggested as something comparable to a charitable organization as per association with the well-known and respected organizations named by the defense. This is misleading because the only objectives of the WTS are its own charity, not public works.
  <B> Objection Sustained</B>

  I also object to the inference made by the Defense in his opening statement he made with these words:

  quote:
  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  They brought us all more personal freedom in the US because of their fights in the courts in the early and mid 1900's. They arguably teach good family values. At least when the children are preteen. It is arguable because each individual has a different idea about what they value in a family.
  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  I think it fair to say that the JW’s did fight in court to secure freedom of speech but you should also remember that same freedom gave us massive amounts of pornography in this country as well. I also have to ask the Defense if protecting pedophiles is something that promotes family values? Is shunning something that promotes family values? I think the court should remind the Defense that these remarks are at best mixed in terms of being favorable to the Defense as we all know that the JW family values are simply programming by the WTS to create more Witnesses and expand their reign of terror.

  Respectfully submitted to da Judge Venice.

  Skipper
  ________
  <B> Objection sustained </B>
• 

  Mindchild

  PART ONE: Scriptural Support for Disrespecting the WTS

  My detailed arguments for the scriptural justification for active confrontation with Jehovah’s Witnesses come from several examples in the Bible.

  The first I could think of was the well-known example of Elijah insulting and confronting the worshippers of Baal way back when. The account is found in the Bible at 1 Kings chapter 18, and two verses are quoted here for quick reference from the Revised Standard Bible:

  And they took the bull which was given them, and they prepared it, and called on the name of Ba'al from morning until noon, saying, "O Ba'al, answer us!" But there was no voice, and no one answered. And they limped about the altar which they had made.

  And at noon Eli'jah mocked them, saying, "Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is musing, or he has gone aside, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened." (it showed be noted that Elijah is saying Baal has gone out to take a bowel movement here, thus showing his level of disrespect for the worshippers of Baal.)

  John the Baptizer called the Pharisees and Sadducees "offspring of vipers." (Mt 3:7; Lu 3:7) And Jesus Christ called the scribes and Pharisees "offspring of vipers" because of their wickedness and the deadly spiritual harm they could inflict upon unsuspecting persons.—Mt 12:34; 23:33. It should be noted that Jesus and John did not mince words here. Snakes were probably the equivalent of “mother fuckers” back in those days and it was likely that this was a real insult.

  Here are a few more scriptures you might find interesting to read:

  *** Rbi8 Matthew 3:7-8 ***
  7 When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: "YOU offspring of vipers, who has intimated to YOU to flee from the coming wrath? 8 So then produce fruit that befits repentance;

  *** Rbi8 Matthew 12:33-37 ***
  33 "Either YOU people make the tree fine and its fruit fine or make the tree rotten and its fruit rotten; for by its fruit the tree is known. 34 Offspring of vipers, how can YOU speak good things, when YOU are wicked? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good man out of his good treasure sends out good things, whereas the wicked man out of his wicked treasure sends out wicked things. 36 I tell YOU that every unprofitable saying that men speak, they will render an account concerning it on Judgment Day; 37 for by your words you will be declared righteous, and by your words you will be condemned."

  *** Rbi8 Luke 3:7-9 ***
  7 Therefore he began to say to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him: "YOU offspring of vipers, who has intimated to YOU to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore produce fruits that befit repentance. And do not start saying within yourselves, ‘As a father we have Abraham.’ For I say to YOU that God has power to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 9 Indeed, the ax is already in position at the root of the trees; every tree, therefore, not producing fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire."

  Does it look like respect was being shown here for “the bad guys?” Was the confrontation indirect, subtle and gentle?

  I would also like to submit one last scriptural reference here from a surprise witness, Clash City Rockers who posted in this thread:

  The question is by what standard are we and how we are to be respectful. 1 Peter 3:16 tells us to do our apoligetics with respect and meekness but 2 Cor 10:4,5 gives us a commission to be dillagent in our polemics to intellectually distroy any argument against the Lordship of Christ.

  By the Witnesses failure to have any resemblance to anything close to a true religion, these very words encourage us to mock and pity them.

  Prosecution rests on this point and runs off to make popcorn.

  Skipper
• 

  Mindchild

  It should be noted that as the entity of Jehovah’s Witnesses is a transnational Corporation and beyond the laws of any one country, that there may be parallels we can draw upon in the social and corporate world to determine the amount of respect due to an organization when something goes terribly wrong.

  In 1984, in Bhopal, India such a transnational corporation stunned and shocked the world by creating the world’s worst industrial accident. The Bhopal disaster killed more than 2,000 people and seriously injured and estimated 200,000, many of whom suffered permanent blindness and damage to their respiratory systems. The disaster occurred when a pesticide plant owned by Union Carbide released methyl isocyanate gas, creating a vast fog of death. Even more horrifying than the number of dead, was the appalling nature of their dying—crowds of men, women and children running rapidly into the dark, twitching and writhing like the insects for who the poison was intended.

  Who was responsible for this tragedy? Union Carbide tried to blame it all on sabotage by an employee who was pissed at the company. Even if this version of events was true, of course, it in no way mitigates the companies responsibility for the disaster. A whole cascade of failed safety measures went into the Bhopal tragedy. For example a refrigeration unit that was supposed to prevent such a disaster was shut down and had been inactive for five months. Other fail-safe devices were out of commission. The plant was understaffed. There was no alarm system to detect toxic releases inside the plant. There was no alarm system for the outside community.

  In the wake of such disasters, it is usually easy to find embarrassing examples of experts who predicted beforehand that such an event could ever take place.

  The question I submit to all those in this Court of Opinion is: Is the WTS another Bhopal disaster waiting to happen? I say YES, and it has been an ongoing disaster!

  Far more than 2,000 people have lost their lives because of the teachings of the WTS through loss of life from the blood policy, from child abuse, from persecution, and from suicides. None of these were pleasant and peaceful deaths either. They were violent and soul wrenching, just like in India.

  Countless thousands more have been injured because of the WTS and its policies. Just because there are not physical scars, it doesn’t mean there are not scars. Think of all the broken marriages and families resulted from shunning. Think of the horrific family crises that are common in dubs lives. Think of how you personally feel about your own self-image and how this religion did its best to make you feel insignificant, unworthy, not good enough, a constant sinner and worse. Think about your fear of death from a vengeful and murdering God the Witnesses claim will fix things by murdering people like you.

  The Watchtower’s fail-safe mechanism is not in place. The evidence is abundant that they prefer dogma to human life and human dignity. Such people who are blind devotees of a dangerous cult mind virus collectively have no idea where they are heading and the future damage they will do. A brief taste of this damage was seen in the years after 1975 come and went and mental institutions around the world were filling up with severely depressed Witnesses, Witnesses who had nervous breakdowns, and Witnesses who had more serious mental problems. If you take the time to look through the links the prosecution has provided you might be shocked to stumble across the comments of some staff workers of mental hospitals in those years…they called them Watchtower Houses instead of a mental institution.

  I say the ONLY alarm system to the outside world about the dangerous and murderous trail of the WTS is people like you and me, the one’s who the WTS calls “opposers” or apostates. WE are the experts that have seen the danger within. We know first hand the effects this transnational corporation has on affecting our own lives.

  For us to show respect to such an life-negative organization that is still actively and potentially dangerous to millions of lives, is like the wounded survivors of the Union Carbide massacre to return to their homes and tell their friends, family and neighbors that we are so grateful to have this Pesticide plant in our neighborhood. It is good for the community. It provides jobs, it gives people meaning in their lives, and it is doing a good public service.

  DO YOU THINK THIS IS WHAT THEY WOULD BE SAYING? I don’t! I think they would be doing everything in their power to get rid of this death machine. They wouldn’t be worried about showing respect to the company. It doesn’t deserve respect it was a killer.

  Thus, if Jehovah’s Witnesses were just your standard run-of-the-mill-established religion, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. We wouldn’t be talking about lives getting ruined and murdering members by doctrine. We wouldn’t be debating giving them respect because in most cases your typical churches are not as deleterious as this totalizing belief system. This religion that glorifies the idea of global death as the solution to our collective problems is not something that any of us can respect. It is life negative and we need to sound the alarm.

  Skipper
• 

  Will Power

  ...gallery erupts in thunderous applause.....
• 

  tyydyy

  Your honor,
  If we are going have orderly proceedings we really can't have objections raised to comments made in the opening statements. Especially the day after. This could take forever. We should raise objections in a timely manner and move on to the next point.

  I am filing a formal protest to the sustained objections on these grounds.

  In the earlier objections I believe my words were taken out of context and an improper inference was made. I did not suggest that the WTS was a charitable organization. I merely sited those examples because I knew they had controversy and yet they do some good for society. I went on to show some of the good that the WTS does for society. I don't think I said or implied anywhere that the WTS was a CHARITABLE organization.
  

  We need to look at the good that the religion does as well as the bad. In the process, we need to keep in mind that every organization has bad in it. At what point does the bad in an organization justify withholding respect?

  Before we begin looking at the Witnesses, let's keep in mind that there are many organizations that do many good things for people but are still involved in scandals concerning how people are treated, how the money is handled and the ethics/motives of the leaders. Some that come to mind are, The Salvation Army, The United Way, Unicef, The Red Cross...etc. Do we withhold our respect from these organizations and ignore the good that they do because there is some corruption? That of course is a personal decision but most people respect these organizations for the good that they are attempting to do in spite of the controversy.

  Now for the Witnesses. What good have they done as a Religion

  
  

  I think it fair to say that the JW’s did fight in court to secure freedom of speech but you should also remember that same freedom gave us massive amounts of pornography in this country as well.[quote]

  Are you saying that our constitutional freedom of speech is a bad thing? Are you saying that pornography is a bad thing? If you are, then you are talking about a totally different subject, that frankly, I don't think belongs in this court. I OBJECT to the inference that the freedom to worship and preach is somehow remotely comparable to pornography.

  [quote]we all know that the JW family values are simply programming

  Excuse me, but we don't all know this. Let's see some evidence. I would say that all family values are a result of programming. So is putting your children to bed at 8:00 PM. We cannot use the word programming like a dirty word unless we're talking about something dirty. Besides it is not a common practice for preteen children to be shunned.

  TimB
• 

  tyydyy

  One can also extend this same principle to rank and file members of the Witnesses who may be totally ignorant of these policies and would likewise be shocked to discover these atrocities. Such individuals are not culpable in the same way because of due innocence.

  Thanks I'm glad we agree on that. The individuals are not responsible for the wrongdoing of the WTS unless they know the practices are wrong.

  TimB
• 

  tyydyy

  PART ONE: Scriptural Support for Disrespecting the WTS

  I don't recognize the Bible as any kind of authority in these matters. One can use the Bible to show precedence for any arguement and that is a totally different subject.

  For example: Look at the example of Bear that killed 40 children when they called a "prophet of god" an old bald head.

  TimB
• 

  Scully

  If it please the Court, Your Honour, I, as Co-Counsel for the Prosecution, would like to present for your examination the following evidence.

  The purpose of this trial is to determine whether the Watchtower Society and its adherents, known commonly as Jehovah's Witnesses, are entitled to respect.

  By the agreement of this court, the term 'respect' was held to mean the according of courtesy to others in our interactions with them. In behaving in a courteous manner, the understanding of the term 'respect' would necessarily include honesty in communications. Respectful conduct with regard to honesty would involve not withholding truthful information as much as it includes refraining from wilfully misinforming others.

  I submit for your examination the following quotations which are found in literature published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, which is read by and adhered to by Jehovah's Witnesses.

  I have taken the liberty to highlight sections of particular interest with regard to our discussion of honesty. It is generally understood that lying, or falsehood, is the opposite of truth or honesty. Kindly take note the following definition and explanation of the word "Lie", as purported by the Watchtower Society:

  *** it-2 244-5 Lie *** LIE
  The opposite of truth. Lying generally involves saying something false to a person who is entitled to know the truth and doing so with the intent to deceive or to injure him or another person. A lie need not always be verbal. It can also be expressed in action, that is, a person may be living a lie... While malicious lying is definitely condemned in the Bible, this does not mean that a person is under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it.

  *** w60 6/1 351 Questions from Readers *** • From time to time letters are received asking whether a certain circumstance would justify making an exception to the Christian's obligation to tell the truth. In reply to these the following is given:

  God's Word commands: "Speak truth each of you with his neighbor." (Eph. 4:25) This command, however, does not mean that we should tell everyone who asks us all he wants to know. We must tell the truth to one who is entitled to know, but if one is not so entitled we may be evasive ... As a soldier of Christ he is in theocratic warfare and he must exercise added caution when dealing with God's foes. Thus the Scriptures show that for the purpose of protecting the interests of God's cause, it is proper to hide the truth from God's enemies.

  *** Watchtower 1957 May 1 p285, 286 Use Theocratic War Strategy *** A WITNESS of Jehovah was going from house to house in Eastern Germany when she met a violent opposer. Knowing at once what to expect she changed her red blouse for a green one in the very next hallway. No sooner had she appeared on the street than a Communist officer asked her if she had seen a woman with a red blouse. No, she replied, and went on her way. Did she tell a lie? No, she did not. . She was not a liar. Rather, she was using theocratic war strategy, hiding the truth by action and word for the sake of the ministry.

  In this she had good Scriptural precedent. Did not Rahab hide the Israelite spies by both action and word? Did not Abraham, Isaac, David and others likewise hide the truth at times when faced with a hostile enemy? They certainly did, and never do we read a word of censure for their doing so. Rather, we read of their being termed exemplary servants of Jehovah. Their actions were in line with Jesus' wise counsel: "Look! I am sending you forth as sheep amidst wolves; therefore prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves."-Matt. 10:16, NW.

  Perhaps some will wonder as to where the line is to be drawn between use of theocratic war strategy in hiding the truth and the telling of lies. First of all, let it be noted that whenever one takes an oath to tell the truth he is obligated to do so. By dedicating himself to do God's will each Christian has taken a vow or made an oath to do God's will and to be faithful to him. To this oath he certainly must be true. Likewise, when a Christian is placed on a witness stand he is obligated to speak the truth if he speaks at all. At times he may prefer to refuse to speak and suffer the consequences rather than betray his brothers or the interests of God's work. And, of course, there is no occasion for use of war strategy when dealing with our Christian brothers. In dealing with them we tell the truth or tactfully remind them that what they seek to know does not concern them.

  Lies are untruths told for selfish reasons and which work injury to others. Satan told a lie to Eve that worked great harm to her and all the human race. Ananias and Sapphira told lies for selfish reasons. But hiding the truth, which he is not entitled to know, from an enemy does not harm him, especially when he would use such information to harm others who are innocent.

  A great work is being done by the witnesses even in lands where their activity is banned. The only way they can fulfill the command to preach the good news of God's kingdom is by use of theocratic war strategy. By underground methods the literature is brought into the country and distributed. Would it make sense to hide this literature by one's actions and then reveal its whereabouts by one's words when queried? Of course not! So in time of spiritual warfare it is proper to misdirect the enemy by hiding the truth. It is done unselfishly; it does not harm anyone; on the contrary, it does much good.

  Today God's servants are engaged in a warfare, a spiritual, theocratic warfare, a warfare ordered by God against wicked spirit forces and against false teachings. God's servants are sent forth as sheep among wolves and therefore need to exercise the extreme caution of serpents so as to protect properly the interests of God's kingdom committed to them. At all times they must be very careful not to divulge any information to the enemy that he could use to hamper the preaching work. Your Honour, it is the position of the Prosecution, based on these direct quotes, that the Defense may, at this very moment be engaged in "Theocratic War Strategy" in his attempts to persuade the court to decide in his favour. Indeed, Your Honour, the Defense may in fact consider this Court and You, Yourself, Your Honour, to 'not be entitled to the truth'.

  Yes, indeed, if the Defense is supporting the cause of the Watchtower Society, it would not only be profitable for him to engage in "Theocratic War Strategy", but the very cause itself would DEMAND his use of it.

  Your Honour, I hereby submit that in view of these findings, it is impossible to determine whether the Defense is in fact being honest and, indeed, RESPECTFUL with this Court.

  I further submit, these questions for the Court's indulgence:

  How much respect can one have for a religion that says that it is appropriate to lie for the furtherance of their cause?

  How much respect can one have for persons who willingly submit to, and when required, will lie for the organization they represent?

  My concluding remarks in this matter shall also consist of a direct quote from the Watchtower Society:
  

  *** ts (Is This Life All There Is? 1974) 46 What Is This Thing Called "Soul"? ***
  ...God, who is himself "the God of truth" and who hates lies, will not look with favor on persons who cling to organizations that teach

  [or promote!] falsehood. (Psalm 31:5; Proverbs 6:16-19; Revelation 21:8) And, really, would you want to be even associated with a religion that had not been honest with you?The facts speak for themselves, Your Honour. The very words of the Watchtower Society itself have condemned them. The willingness to lie for the furtherance of its goals on the part of both the leadership and the adherents proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the Watchtower Society has NO RESPECT for the social propriety of respect, and therefore, does not merit the respect of anyone.

  Submitted to Your Honour for Her Consideration,
  Ms. Scully, Co-Counsel for the Prosecution
• 

  tyydyy

  I like the prosecutions use of the Union Carbide disaster. I do not think it is a direct parallel but close enough.

  For us to show respect to such an life-negative organization that is still actively and potentially dangerous to millions of lives, is like the wounded survivors of the Union Carbide massacre to return to their homes and tell their friends, family and neighbors that we are so grateful to have this Pesticide plant in our neighborhood. It is good for the community. It provides jobs, it gives people meaning in their lives, and it is doing a good public service.

  Ask people working at that facility before the disaster and you would find that the majority did feel the plant was good for the community. They were happy that it did provide jobs. They did feel it was doing a good public service. Once the corrections were made then it once again gained respect as an organization. To the same level?? Probably not. But they still do provide jobs and do a good public service to this day. Do we call for the End of Union Carbide? No. We call for safety corrections to be made.
  The WTS has made adjustments on the Blood issue and in due time it will not be an issue. In the meantime the Witnesses have had great success using alternative blood products.

  TimB