Question for ALL ex JW's or those who don't believe everything - (the answers here may help you and your answers may help others)

by EndofMysteries 36 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  EndofMysteries

  Please answer the question(s) which corresponds to your current belief, if you believe in A. The Bible and God. B. just God, but no bible C. neither (atheist)

  I'm asking for mutual benefit, in my quest for the truth (still a work in progress), some of the things I've run into you may want to think about, and in your answers will show if anything I haven't thought of or checked into yet, as well as all readying this.... (all the hours you've spent, vs just my own, having many combined may bring up a few good things for us all from everyones answers )

  I'll post a few personal notes at the start of each one, as my input for you to consider, then the questions for you at the end.

  A. If you believe in the bible AND God - (I do, the bible currently in a complicated way..) - My first inclination when on path of leaving was to spread how we are being lied to, etc, and to DA myself. Then I remembered also the scriptures about cautious as serpents, innocent as doves. Without knowin what I 'should' be doing and fully convinced, not to get too hasty. I quickly saw it seems no religion or group has it fully right. Just based on the bible at 'face value', JWs doing preaching, some more focused on charity, etc. At the very least, they are doing some good, are they related to the congregations in Revelation? About faith, most trust the governing body, in their minds they are putting faith that God will direct them to do what his will is. Does God view that as putting faith in THEM, or in HIM? I have some very old relatives, if one was a JW most of their life, only short time left, if in their mind they did the right thing and have faith, would be showing them it's not the truth and crashing their faith, without any answers, would God want that, would he want me to try to get them to trust in him directly, or would I be guilty of stumbling them and ruining their faith? How did you, yourself, come to decide what to do, and is your conscious at ease with it?

  B. If you believe in God, but not the bible - You've probably run into what I've been reading and seeing at some point. What look like contradictions or things which don't make sense. The contradictions, I've found in reading interlinear bibles and such, that many cases of what appear the bible is talking about God, or the Almighty, 'could' be mistaken. In the interlinear translated to English, then words arranged, if the translators understanding was incorrect, that could have passed on as well. AND/OR the teachings have been incorrect or corrupted. For example, if you dismiss it because the God in old testament vs in new testament seems to be completely different......(I've been trying to understand this for quite some time now. There IS something not properly understood or well known about that. For example, Israel is Jehovah's 'interitance' (Is that statement with our understanding of Jehovah possible? How can he inherit anything?), Jesus statement about being Davids son or of Judah, (He said that "David called him my lord, how can he be his son then?"), he said they are VERY MUCH MISTAKEN, and about the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is a God of the living, not the dead. He also said it was not his time yet (when didn't drink wine at the wedding). A lot I can post.....either translation errors or even understanding. All scriptures we think are talking about God, as we think, may have been talking about a few different spirit creatures. There is also the books which were not cannonized. (My advice, make sure you were thorough before final decision) My question, is if you don't believe in the bible, why? What was the fool proof evidence for you? Did you research any other books or try to find what could be truth from God in your eyes?

  C. Atheist - I can understand those loosing faith in bible, but everything in existance, I can't believe was random. I see far too much evidence of intelligent design, and how all supposedly randomness, with intelligent thinking ability, we as humans can't duplicate. If life happened on its own, why can't we create it ourselves. My question, is your path from being a JW, to not believe in bible, then not even in God. What made your belief firm in this?
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  notverylikely

  I see far too much evidence of intelligent design

  Such as?

  how all supposedly randomness, with intelligent thinking ability, we as humans can't duplicate

  I am not sure what you mean here...

  If life happened on its own, why can't we create it ourselves.

  First of all, who says we can't? "Haven't yet" doesn't equal "won't be able to". Science is progressing rapidly.

  Secondly, given that it took billions of years, it might be fair to give humans a few hundred.

  My question, is your path from being a JW, to not believe in bible, then not even in God. What made your belief firm in this?

  She blinded me with science.
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  Mad Sweeney

  You forgot us agnostics.

  It's ok. We're used to it.

  But seriously, there is probably some sort of consciousness behind the universe but it is not anything like any religions teach us and it doesn't demand worship or service. There is no real way to get to know "him" because there is no "him" there. Calling it a "him" is just a human convenience to convince ourselves that he's like us.

  But of course it's like us; it IS US. And everything else, too. The abundance of dynamic energy that was required to form the matter of the universe is mind-boggling, and the order of the universe and its laws are likewise awe-inspiring. And that energy and matter has not been either created or destroyed since. They have only adapted and changed form depending on the environmental conditions they find themselves in. The same atoms formed at the birth of the universe inhabit your pet goldfish, your computer keyboard, and your Wendy's Baconator today. Either God is an integral part of ALL or it is completely outside of ALL and we have no connection to it.

  I strongly lean toward the former.
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  HintOfLime

  C. Atheist - I can understand those loosing faith in bible, but everything in existance, I can't believe was random.

  Ah, but it is not random. It's not random at all, just as a fractal image is not random.

  While the seed values may be random - it only takes a couple mathematical 'rules' to create very complex, repeating, and infinitely detailed shapes. Likewise, even if the initial distribution of molecules and types of molecules resulting from the big bang were completely random (which I would deem unlikely), immediately the 4 physical forces (gravity, electromagnetic, and the strong/weak nuclear forces) reigned in and sorted out the chaos. Gravity pulled the molecules into tiny clumps, tiny clumps became attracted to one another, etc. For a computer programmer, it only takes a few lines of code to roughly simulate the effect of gravity on a bunch of tiny particles, and see what happens.

  Likewise, with nearly everything we see, we humans have found a naturalistic explanation for it - meaning we can find an explanation that requires nothing more than time and physical laws.

  In a sense, my god is physics and mathematics - and unlike other gods, you can see my god in work every day. You can put him to the test, and he always proves true.

  I see far too much evidence of intelligent design, and how all supposedly randomness, with intelligent thinking ability, we as humans can't duplicate.

  There are also examples of poor design in nature. In the human eye for example, the nerves pass in front of the light-sensitive nerve endings, reducing light sensitivity, making the eye more susceptible to various disorders, and causing a blind spot where the optic nerve enters the eye. No human-designed camera sensor has or ever would be designed this way - it's an absolutely horrible idea.

  Odds are, you only see intelligence in design because you are not looking critically or thinking in terms of actual engineering.

  If life happened on its own, why can't we create it ourselves.

  Whose to say we won't, eventually, or perhaps even soon. We're well on our way to being able to with research into nanotechnology.

  My question, is your path from being a JW, to not believe in bible, then not even in God. What made your belief firm in this?

  My disbelief began when I was a kid writing computer programs and studying fractals. Honestly when I was in school I was bothered by the fact that evolution made a lot more sense to me than creation. I saw it as a tidier explanation, resolving the "If because we are complex we require a creator, then God - who must be even more complex - requires one as well." paradox. It wasn't until I got into an argument with an atheist at around 24 years old that after days of debate I realized - he had a much stronger case than I did.

  I went on to study the origin of the bible, and critically consider it's texts - and I ultimately decided that if God wanted to communicate with man, he certainly could have done a much better job in his dealings with man than the biblical God.

  - Lime
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  leavingwt

  I quickly saw it seems no religion or group has it fully right.

  This statement indicates you have determined what is Right. elaborate on what makes a particular faith, "right".
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  leavingwt

  "The theory of evolution says that life originated, and evolution proceeds, by random chance."
  
  There is probably no other statement which is a better indication that the arguer doesn't understand evolution. Chance certainly plays a large part in evolution, but this argument completely ignores the fundamental role of natural selection, and selection is the very opposite of chance. Chance, in the form of mutations, provides genetic variation, which is the raw material that natural selection has to work with. From there, natural selection sorts out certain variations. Those variations which give greater reproductive success to their possessors (and chance ensures that such beneficial mutations will be inevitable) are retained, and less successful variations are weeded out. When the environment changes, or when organisms move to a different environment, different variations are selected, leading eventually to different species. Harmful mutations usually die out quickly, so they don't interfere with the process of beneficial mutations accumulating.
  
  Nor is abiogenesis (the origin of the first life) due purely to chance. Atoms and molecules arrange themselves not purely randomly, but according to their chemical properties. In the case of carbon atoms especially, this means complex molecules are sure to form spontaneously, and these complex molecules can influence each other to create even more complex molecules. Once a molecule forms that is approximately self-replicating, natural selection will guide the formation of ever more efficient replicators. The first self-replicating object didn't need to be as complex as a modern cell or even a strand of DNA. Some self-replicating molecules are not really all that complex (as organic molecules go).
  
  Some people still argue that it is wildly improbable for a given self-replicating molecule to form at a given point (although they usually don't state the "givens," but leave them implicit in their calculations). This is true, but there were oceans of molecules working on the problem, and no one knows how many possible self-replicating molecules could have served as the first one. A calculation of the odds of abiogenesis is worthless unless it recognizes the immense range of starting materials that the first replicator might have formed from, the probably innumerable different forms that the first replicator might have taken, and the fact that much of the construction of the replicating molecule would have been non-random to start with.
  
  (One should also note that the theory of evolution doesn't depend on how the first life began. The truth or falsity of any theory of abiogenesis wouldn't affect evolution in the least.)

  Five Major Misconceptions About Evolution

  http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html
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  EndofMysteries

  Leaving WT - right in the sense of in harmony with all the bible teaches. Bible says to look after widows and orphans is the form of worship pure in God's eyes - yet JW's aren't taught to do anything in regards to that.

  - religions which deal more with that and charity to the poor, accept and practice things contrary to the bible

  Will easily find things not being done or taught within the bible.

  THEN also many questions or scriptures not understood, or their explanations not in harmony with the numerous other scriptures on the same topic.
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  notverylikely

  This statement indicates you have determined what is Right. elaborate on what makes a particular faith, "right".

  Come have faith in me. I will lead you to the promised land * .

  *Promised land denotes golf, metal, cigars, scotch, beer, hot chicks in bikinis, snowboarding, scuba diving, fishing, hunting, lounging on the beach, badass movies, more books by Neil Gaiman, and whatever the hell else sounds like fun
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  leavingwt

  Leaving WT - right in the sense of in harmony with all the bible teaches. Bible says to look after widows and orphans is the form of worship pure in God's eyes - yet JW's aren't taught to do anything in regards to that.

  Do you think religions break down into two categories: False Religion and True Religion? I never had such an idea until I became a JW. Prior to that, I accepted people at their word. If they told me they were Christian, who was I to question their personal faith.

  I no longer view these matters in a black-and-white manner. Further, I've discovered that many religions are based upon a UNIQUE interpretation of Scripture.

  Once I let this sink in a bit, I was a better person: "The Bible is not a book of detailed theology."

  Moreover, Sola Scriptura is not believed by MOST Christians alive today. Just some things to ponder over.
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  notverylikely

  Do you think religions break down into two categories: False Religion and True Religion?

  True religions get tax breaks, fake ones don't.