Marked.
Question for ALL ex JW's or those who don't believe everything - (the answers here may help you and your answers may help others)
by EndofMysteries 36 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
-
Mad Sweeney
Something I find odd about this "god" stuff is that copies of copies of ancient texts that were handed down for hundreds or thousands of years orally by primitive people before ever being written are viewed as authoritative while evidence-supported modern scientific texts are met with skepticism. That's kind of a big "wha?!?" that doesn't make a lot of rational sense.
-
OnTheWayOut
C. Atheist - I can understand those loosing faith in bible, but everything in existance, I can't believe was random. I see far too much evidence of intelligent design, and how all supposedly randomness, with intelligent thinking ability, we as humans can't duplicate. If life happened on its own, why can't we create it ourselves. My question, is your path from being a JW, to not believe in bible, then not even in God. What made your belief firm in this?
First of all, I believe that everyone must blaze their own spiritual trail. I don't think they can take too many shortcuts. I also think it is not all that important where you are on your trail if you stay on the journey of spirituality. So don't expect that answers from a few people will really be received so well and help you all that much. You say yourself that you "see far too much evidence of intelligent design." People tend to believe what they believe and dismiss data contrary to their belief system as invalid.
It was very difficult to stop dismissing data contrary to WT teachings. Once I was able to do that and knew they were not "the truth" from God, I had to learn about the Bible, their standard. I viewed many documentaries about the origins of the Bible and read many books about the flaws of the Bible and what archaeologists know about the Bible. I read and read and researched to see that the Bible could be made to say anything by the various groups. I also learned that history paints a different picture from the Bible and that the God of the Old Testament was cruel and allowed rape, pillaging, genocide, slavery, and made women secondary citizens. That opened the way to dismiss the God of the Bible. Once I learned to dismiss one God, I was ready to examine the very concept.
I remember being a young military man visiting Greece and going on a tour of the temples. I asked the tour guide if anyone believed in the Gods of the Greeks anymore. She laughed and said that they learned how silly the very ideas were. Much later, I was able to apply that to the God of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc. I also had a unique experience where I once thought God answered my prayers and led me to the JW's. Learning about how we can convince ourselves that our prayers are answered (because, let's face it that God wouldn't lead people to a dangerous mind-control cult) then I was ready to see how Mormons, JW's, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, etc. could be doing the same thing and thinking that they know God answered their prayers. Not only is it possible that most of them are wrong, it is vital that most of them are wrong. It is also possible that all of them are wrong.
Lastly, all legends and religions are based on ancient superstitions and beliefs beyond understanding. There is no current religious belief that encompasses accurate science and properly explains life, the universe, and everything. That doesn't mean that God doesn't exist in some way beyond our understanding. But if that is so, then we are on our own anyway. Do your best to live the life you should live and don't try to appease a god that doesn't tell us how to appease him.
-
AllTimeJeff
I am just curious as to why you are disturbed that SOME former JW's don't "believe everything". As if to imply that those that "believe everything" are somehow superior?
A sad, yet curious fact about believers (not all, but a definite some) is that their belief is predicated on getting others to believe in, exercise faith in, the unseen entity that all religions claim to know, represent, but never produce.
So this whole thread is a misnomer, an exercise in futility. This topic has nothing to do with the utility of faith. You instead challenge those who "don't believe everything".
The whole premise of your thread is to discuss fiction with those who "don't believe everything".
In my view, maturity is reached when a person can keep their own beliefs while letting go of the need to somehow convince or force their beliefs on others.
I realize that you might protest and say "But I am not forcing my beliefs on anyone." Fair enough. But are you allowing for the very real possibility that YOU are in error?
If you can't recognize your own theological gray areas, then you only bring this up for one reason, as an apologetic for your own dogmatic point of view. As if others must be convinced you are right, or that others must be convinced they are wrong.
If you see God where others don't, all I can say is, tell her we said hello. But you seeing god, and believing we were somehow created is a long way from identity and personality.
Your use of words like "belief" are disrespectful in my opinion, to myself and many others. As if atheists and agnostics replaced belief in god with a belief in a non god. Atheists and agnostics will ever only bring up one point that seems to be lost on you; you and your beliefs, and your passion, have produced not one iota of EVIDENCE of a god, to say nothing of a god with a distinctive personality.
Anyway, my question to you is, why do you care?
-
EndofMysteries
AlltimeJeff - I'm unraveling and looking for answers on things which most just walk away from. Looking for solid information and those who were JWs and how they ended up at their current state. Seeing if anything either "pro" believing in bible and God, and 'not', and why. I am not trying to prove anything, I'm trying to get answers. The only things I stated, is because I understand why most gave up or stop believing.
I was 'hoping' for some very specific hard evidence or facts. For example somebody who doesn't believe in the bible, listing things older then the bible and what they said. Or evidence parts of the bible are rewrittings of pagan teachings, etc.
For those who do believe, the facts too. I have lots of inconclusive facts right now, gathering lots of important information. Have made some startling discoveries though lol.
Here is an interesting concept, one of the few possibilities from what I've been reading and learning so far. I list this one, as the concept may fill in some pieces of the puzzle to agnostics and atheists as well..,,,,I can't find any scriptual evidence of the bible teaching of a 2nd chance, a resurrection for everyone cept those in the last days to be able to prove themselves. On the part of preaching, it even says that it would not ever be fully complete, but those would be judged based on their conscious and also prove to have the law written in their hearts. Also in Revelation except for those ruling as kings and priests and of the first resurrection, the rest don't come to life until 'after' the thousand year reign, to be judged from how they lived their life on earth.
The scriptures say a lot about your conscious, anything done in a bad conscious is a sin. Anytime you do something you question or know may not be right, is a sin. Whether your believe or not, or know the truth or not. It doesn't take the bible or anybody telling you, that murder is wrong, rape is wrong, etc. Jesus also said not by searching the scriptures could they find life, because of the way they lived. If the true God is 'perfect' in justice, he would have things done in a way that's fair for all. What's to say that he is not PURPOSELY having the truth very hard to find and not really in public eye? Because he wants to see what choices and how some would live if they thought it didn't exist or can't be found. He's allowing ones to show their true selves. Those who think they have it, even if wrong, may be building up a record of judging when they were guilty of other things and no more deserving. (As a JW, most of us are probably guilty of that. )
And about the last days, there is a scripture that actually rebukes those who are wishing his day would come soon and 'craving' it, how stupid they are, because they are blind and don't know it, they will die if it came when they were wanting it. As for how long it's taking to come......making it seem like it will strike in your lifetime, so all those are judged and having lived their lives as if at once. (no excuse for the man 1500 years ago vs the man today, if they both thought it was about to hit) THEN the scriptures talking about grafting onto the olive tree, read that whole account in context. It says that Israels error was MADE TO BE, so that people of the nations would have a chance. But if they get haughty and 'think' they did 'better', they will be lopped off. That the error of Israel is until all those of the nations have been finally selected. Perhaps it's also quite literal, that we can't find the answers or learn from any human, we can only learn if faith and trust in the true God and he directs his spirit. Somebody showing the truth if they had it may seem like nonsense to us, we may be unable to comprehend it. In the end, these things which don't make sense right now, may make a lot of sense, and part of God's divine plan.
-
OnTheWayOut
For example somebody who doesn't believe in the bible, listing things older then the bible and what they said. Or evidence parts of the bible are rewrittings of pagan teachings, etc.
You don't need us to do that for you. Look for yourself. With the internet and the public libraries, this is pretty easy to do.
Whether your believe or not, or know the truth or not. It doesn't take the bible or anybody telling you, that murder is wrong, rape is wrong, etc.
Inconsistent with the God of the OT. Also, I agree that it doesn't take the Bible in those cases, but religion goes further to say what is sin and what is not. Is it sin for women to allow strange men to see their calves and their elbows and their smiles? Is it sin to smoke a cigarette? Is it sin to sleep with someone you care about? Is it sin to eat pork? Religion decides these things in different ways.
And what "truth" are you referring to? Do you know the truth? Do I? Does anybody?
-
EndofMysteries
Left my bible in my car, but the one I'm referring to, is I believe in 1 cor 3, talking about the sacred secret, things which man has not been able to comprehend.
Speaking of murder and such, there are some scriptures which say, 1. that God's wiping out Canaan is NOT because Israel deserved it, it's 'only' because of the extreme wickedness of those nations. Another though, says that Israel was 'loving' violence and killed who they were not supposed to I believe....something hinting that all they did was not neccessarily from God.
You are correct, I don't need anybody to do any research for me. But if any already 'had', just happened to find what I was looking for or about to, can save much time. A few who may have spent 10, 20, 40, 100 hours, etc, on a subject.
-
mindmelda
I haven't believed in the Bible as infallible or as a literal guide for some time now, it simply doesn't seem to work. I think it's useful in some ways as a spiritual book, however. I'm a great believer in the power of ALL myth, though. I do think many things in the Bible are misread or even mistranslated into English. It no doubt accounts for some of the more unpalatable mainstream Christian beliefs that make no sense, like homosexuality taboos.
I believe in "spirit" which is what I term as supernatural or divine power, perhaps even entities, but I don't define it as strictly as most Christians would, I'm sure. I'm a Universalist, which means I believe all belief systems have some validity, as does all belief, including atheism and agnosticism, the humanist beliefs ( I'm aware that for some atheists, the word "belief"itself is cringeworthy, but it's just whatever you think is true, based on what you know as far as I'm concerned), although I don't feel compelled to embrace all beliefs just because someone else wants to.
I doubt I could ever be an atheist, because I believe in the existence of a supernatural realm, which doesn't seem to be impossible scientifically, as far as I know. I choose to believe in it based on personal experience. I regard those experiences as intimate ones and I don't really share them with everyone, so don't ask. I believe all spiritual expression is personal, internal and private, so that's like strangers asking about my sex life, which is rude.
That's one thing I always hated about being a Witness, that prying into other people's personal beliefs, mainly to try to change them. I'd have felt more comfortable doing a sex survey, frankly.
-
AllTimeJeff
Hey EOM.
The fact that you have your own take on god and the bible is fine with me. Believe me. And I wish you the best in that.
You haven't even touched on why believing is superior to not believing. And for all your faith (which again, I am cool with) that is hardly evidence for anything.
It's really as simple as that.
If YOU are looking for answers to questions YOU have, and find answers to YOUR questions, they are merely YOURS. It's one thing to discuss them and talk about the utility the serve in your life.
But when it comes to your expressions on faith and god, rarely do I read about how your beliefs give you peace. More often then not, your implication isn't one of love and peace, but of superiority and a division between believers and non believers.
Again, sorry to say for you, been there and done that, about tens of thousands of times with people of various religions. There is nothing that you have said that is particularly interesting or noteworthy about the bible, the last days, etc.
I mean, do you really think you discovered the wheel here? You do realize that you are one of hundreds of millions of people, Christians, who talk and say the things you do. You all come and go. Your god hasn't shown.
Please don't think I am trying to either debate you or otherwise win an arguement. But I do have a point to make. You talk/type a lot, but say very little. You address neither a sympathetic audience (aka believers) with words of faith, nor a skeptical audience (aka non believers) with compelling arguements.
For as many words you have typed, all you have basically said is "Hey non believers, whats your problem? Why don't you believe? Surely what you have replaced your old belief with isn't as good."
If you haven't meant that, it sure comes across that way to me. And that is why I challenge you, not to change your beliefs, but to instead examine your motives as to why you bring up these inane topics with nothing more to say or do then to incite a discussion that is ultimately self serving for your own belief system.