Shunning is just the modern equivalent of ancient tribal exile and back then that could have been a death sentence, as surving in the wilderness without the support and protection of the tribe would have been very hard. It's all about maintaining control in the KH.
JW replies on my Shunning article
by besty 55 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Mad Sweeney
The JW's almost always completely ignore the scriptural points and go to straight to ad hominems - its quite funny really....
I LOVE how you often refer them to theor OWN literature (the propaganda article) when they use ad hominem and other logically fallacious propaganda techniques. I like to believe (based on nothing but whimsy) that that article was written by a conscious class Dub.
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NeonMadman
Since he took a position that the disfellowshipping practice of the JW's is completely scriptural, perhaps you could ask that he provide scriptural support for the following aspects of that procedure:
(1) that the elders handling such cases of sin should do so in secret
(2) that in no case and at no time should the congregation ever be informed as to what the sin was, only as to the outcome of the hearing, which they must accept without question
(3) that witnesses would not be permitted at such hearings, except within very specific guidelines, and then, that these witnesses could provide testimony only and then be dismissed, not allowed to observe other parts of the hearing
(4) that the person 'on trial' would not be permitted to make any record of the proceeding, even taking notes
(5) that there would be no appeal from the decision of the committee except to another identical 'star-chamber' hearing.
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mindmelda
I think the key "cult" phrase in this reply boils down to "If you disagree with Jehovah's Witnesses, you disagree with the Bible."
From that point on, the usual Straw Man fallacies of thinking apply. I think I would respond as follows, if at all:
"I don't accept your assumption, and that's what it is, that Jehovah's Witnesses are the only people who are able to correctly interpret the Bible. That is a matter of debate, and quite arguable. I have found many points on which, through my own intensive investigation, where Jehovah's Witnesses are or have been incorrect in their interpretations, which is why I don't practice that faith. One of those misinterpretations is about shunning. It was not practiced in the manner that Jehovah's Witnesses practice it in the first century nor was that practice of Jehovha's Witnesses recommended by the Biblical writers."
Then yadda yadda about what those scriptures actually are referring to as per your article, if you care to reiterate all of that, which they didn't read in the first place and are unlikely to read if printed out for them again.
From what the respondent says, they didn't read the whole thing, because as soon as they detected something critical, not of the Bible, but of the WTS, which to their poor indoctrinated brain is the same thing, they quit reading like a good little Witness. So, how can they reasonably comment on something that they admittedly didn't totally read? This is just a typical knee jerk reaction for Witnesses who are thoroughly trained to go into denial/avoidance/snark/fear mode any time they detect any criticism of their almighty Faithful and Discreet Slave.
Amd that's all I gotta say about that...to quote Forrest Gump.
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jwfacts
Besty - great response, I will use it myself in some emails I have to write if you don't mind.
Donuthole - "Paul didn't command us to "high-five" everyone but he certainly commanded Christians to "greet one another with a holy kiss" @ Romans 16:16. It's in the Bible, so why don't JW's do this?" There was an attractive sister in one of my congregations that decided that should be taken literally and started to kiss everyone (respectfully) at meetings. That was too much for most young brothers and wives and she was counselled very quickly and made to stop.
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besty
thanks again for all the tips - apostates rock!
I amended my response to:
It always amuses me when JW apologists break the rules of the religion they are trying to defend by entering into communication with us apostates on the INTERNET.
Anyways - welcome to the dark side Russ!
I note that you begin with questioning my personal motivation - classic ad hominem, and as usual you deployed your tactic upfront and early on - thanks for conforming to type! Further, I don't accept your assumption, and that's what it is, that Jehovah's Witnesses are the only people who are able to correctly interpret the Bible. That is a matter of debate, and quite arguable. I have found many points on which Jehovah's Witnesses are or have been demonstrably incorrect in their interpretations, which is why I don't practice that faith. (not to forget rewriting their own history, covering up child abuse and misleading their followers with pseudo-science etc)
You don't offer any scriptural rebuttal to the points I developed for each of the scriptures the WTS uses to justify its hybrid invented term 'disfellowshipping'. Rather you frame the issue as Right v Wrong. You repeat this theme concluding with 'if you disagree with Jehovah's Witnesses then you disagree with the Bible.' Big claim to make, but made easier by the fact you have created your own Bible translation to compare yourself with. Well done there.
If you feel that the legalistic and secretive way that Jehovah's Witnesses disfellowship people is a reflection of Jesus' ministry then good luck to you. To me it seems more a reflection of the vengeful Yahweh from the Old Testament, but even then you add some new twists. Must feel good to be in the exalted company of Moonies, Scientologists, the Amish and the Mennonites. You aren't even uniquely misguided! As well as extreme shunning, the black and white thinking (right v wrong) is a hallmark of the strict control typical in these new religious movements. Before offering people a bible study perhaps you should offer them a history study.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Taze_Russell
Footnote:
As you seem so keen to impress us with why Jehovah's Witnesses and the Bible are in such perfect harmony please reply with scriptural support for the following aspects of the disfellowshipping procedure:
(1) that the elders handling such cases of sin should do so in secret
(2) that in no case and at no time should the congregation ever be informed as to what the sin was, only as to the outcome of the hearing, which they must accept without question
(3) that witnesses would not be permitted at such hearings, except within very specific guidelines, and then, that these witnesses could provide testimony only and then be dismissed, not allowed to observe other parts of the hearing
(4) that the person 'on trial' would not be permitted to make any record of the proceeding, even taking notes
(5) that there would be no appeal from the decision of the committee except to another identical 'star-chamber' hearing.
Thanks in advance but I'm not holding my breath - most JW apologists are hit and run as they are not meant to be here.
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OUTLAW
Besty..
Good reply..
The trouble with a JW Bible Study is..There is no Bible Study..
JW`s have never had Bible Studys..Ever..
JW`s study WBT$ Literature about the Bible..
But..
There is no Bible Study..
A WBT$ Bible Study ..Is another Bait and Switch by the WBT$..
............................... ...OUTLAW
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cantleave
Besty - Back of the net with that reply. Shame Russ won't even bother to read it.
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isaacaustin
I would ask him where the Bible says to shun.
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PSacramento
The apostle Paul stated an OPINION, what did Jesus, the Son fo God, say and command?
The Parable of the Lost Sheep
10 “See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven. a
12 “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13 And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.
A Brother Who Sins Against You
15 “If your brother sins against you, a go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’b 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18 “I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be c bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be d loosed in heaven.
19 “Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.”
The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant
21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. a
Now, it is crucial to remember one thing here, HOW did Jesus treat Tax collectors and Pagans ( Gentiles)?
It is crucial to also understand that Jesus was reffering to when someone SINS another PERSON specifically ( personally) and not
about sinning in general.
The core teaching is FORGIVENESS as he mentions to Peter and not giving up on a lost one, as the parable of the lost sheep and
lets us NOT forget the message of the parable of the unmerciful servant:
32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”
