Help with another 607 vs 587 question............

by thraxer68 106 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    He reminds me of the movie 50 First Dates. Every time you tell pseudoscholar something it is as though it is the first time, even though it is the same thing over and over again! lol

  • garyneal
    garyneal

    Scholar

    Post 1878

    Garyneal is a little befuddled as he can only see what was plainly written in the text. Garyneal believes that to go beyond what is written is to basically come up with one's own facts to fit one's own conclusions. In other words, start out with conclusions and make facts agree.

    But garyneal does not have a conclusion to start with so garyneal can only determine whether or not the 70 years ended in 539 B.C.E. or not. Therefore, using the scripture in Jeremiah, garyneal sees the following:

    Jeremiah 25:9-11
    9 I will summon all the peoples of the north and my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon," declares the LORD, "and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants and against all the surrounding nations. I will completely destroy them and make them an object of horror and scorn, and an everlasting ruin. 10 I will banish from them the sounds of joy and gladness, the voices of bride and bridegroom, the sound of millstones and the light of the lamp. 11 This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

    • The people of Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar will be brought against the inhabitants of one land.
    • The people of Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar will also be brought against all the surrounding nations.
    • One country becomes a desolate wasteland.
    • The nations will serve the king of Babylon for seventy years.

    From the following verses, I get this:

    Jeremiah 25:12-14
    12 "But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation, the land of the Babylonians, for their guilt," declares the LORD, "and will make it desolate forever. 13 I will bring upon that land all the things I have spoken against it, all that are written in this book and prophesied by Jeremiah against all the nations. 14 They themselves will be enslaved by many nations and great kings; I will repay them according to their deeds and the work of their hands."

    • The king of Babylon will be punished when the 70 years are up.
    • The land will become desolate forever.
    • They will be enslaved my many nations and great kings.

    If history records that Babylon was captured in 539 B.C.E. then it would appear that the 70 years also ended in 539 B.C.E.. To say that the 70 years ended in 537 B.C.E. goes beyond what is written in the Bible and what is recorded in history.

    Perhaps, you have some other proof to back up 537 B.C.E.. It appears that Ann O Maly and isaac disagree with your assertions concerning Ezra, Daniel, Zechariah, and Josephus.

  • scholar
    scholar

    garyneal

    Post 1373

    Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the seventy years ended in 539 BCE. This is simply an interpretation just as it is with the statement that the seventy years ended in 537 BCE for this also is an interpretation. Chronology is about two things: Methodology and Interpretation. The seventy years as to its nature and chronology is also interpretation. Plain and Simple.

    Your tabulation of Jeremiah 25 is flawed becuase you must recognize that verses 9-11 is addressed to Judah and verses 12-14 is addressed to Babylon. What these two sections have in common is the seventy years for this is the 'fulcrum' of both sets of prophecies. Also your first section makes no mention of Judah making the theme of that section Babylon as is the case with the second section this is another mistake. Judah and its inhabitants is the subject of the first section and Babylon is the subject of the second section.

    Your analysis that the seventy years ended in 539 BCE is read into the text by you and there is nothing in the text that suggest your viewpoint. In fact the text has nothing to say about what the ending of the seventy years as such. We have to read Jeremiah 29:10 which tells us more about the event and timing of the seventy years. Further, Ezra, Daniel , Zechariah and Josephus quite clearly show that the seventy years ended in 537 BCE with the Return from Exile.

    scholar JW

  • scholar
    scholar

    AnnOMaly

    Post 1382

    Stubborn Yes, Baloney No. For if it was baloney then nobody would bother with me.My postings over many years with the same and new information and insights have produced an audience. That can not be baloney by any measure.

    Jeremiah in his entire prophecy is replete with vivid poetic descriptions of the desolation of Judah, its Temple, its city and the inhabitants. It is the theme of that book and yet you people still do not get it.

    Daniel was a contemporary of those events as was Ezekiel, Ezra was a historian. These men knew what was happening, they simply reoded events that have become history. Josephus also an historian of some not supported these views. The evidence is cumulative and holistic in that the seventy years was a definite period of desolation, exile in Babylon, servitude to Babylon from the Fall of Jerusalem until the Return to Jerusalem. When will the pennies drop?

    Zechariah the prophet referred twice to that past event and used that as lesson of history as a context for his prophecy just as Daniel did in his prayer recorded in the ninth chapter of his book.

    Josephus made one reference to fifty years whereas all of the other reference by him were to seventy years. Either a copyist mistake ot Josephus was referring to a state of obscurity at fifty years within the duration of seventy years. I some how prefer the latter IMHO.

    Babylonian history or Chronicles have nothing to say whatsoever about the seventy years. Its silence on this vital piece of Judean and Babylonian history is quite telling.

    scholar JW

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    Time to post a link to one of my FAVORITE threads on this subject. After silly scholar provides an exhaustive list of non-JW scholars who endorse 607, near the bottom of this page...

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/175650/17/70-years-3d-607

    ... the following pages go into detail discussing the credentials of silly scholar's bibliohistorical geniuses.

    Bunch of quacks!

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    For if it was baloney then nobody would bother with me.My postings over many years with the same and new information and insights have produced an audience. That can not be baloney by any measure.

    Neil, it's important for the sake of the newer ones here that somebody's for 'overturning [your] strongly entrenched' baloney.

    And with regard to your 'audience,' how do you know that the kind of audience you have attracted here isn't one curious about a freak of nature and liking to prod it with a stick to see it jump?

    Jeremiah in his entire prophecy is replete with vivid poetic descriptions of the desolation of Judah, its Temple, its city and the inhabitants. It is the theme of that book and yet you people still do not get it.

    And yet you still cannot provide a text where Jeremiah states Judah would be desolate for a 70 year period. The only one you do produce doesn't support your claim.

    Daniel was a contemporary of those events as was Ezekiel, Ezra was a historian. These men knew what was happening, they simply reoded events that have become history.

    Right. And still, their words have to be interpreted in light of Jeremiah's words.

    Josephus also an historian of some not supported these views.

    That's just incoherent.

    The evidence is cumulative and holistic in that the seventy years was a definite period of desolation, exile in Babylon, servitude to Babylon from the Fall of Jerusalem until the Return to Jerusalem. When will the pennies drop?

    Baseless assertion.

    Zechariah the prophet referred twice to that past event and used that as lesson of history as a context for his prophecy just as Daniel did in his prayer recorded in the ninth chapter of his book.

    The historical context and dates given in Zechariah show that he was talking about a 70 year period relating to the still ruined temple and God withholding His blessings on the land (see 1: 7,16,17; 7:1-7; cp. Haggai 1:1-11). But you know this already.

    Josephus made one reference to fifty years whereas all of the other reference by him were to seventy years. Either a copyist mistake ot Josephus was referring to a state of obscurity at fifty years within the duration of seventy years. I some how prefer the latter IMHO.

    No copyist mistake. Josephus was using Babylonian and Phoenician sources to get his 50 year figure (duh!). And yes, he was referring to the temple's state of obscurity for 50 years, counting from Neb's desolation of it to the time when its foundations were laid:

    "These accounts agree with the true histories in our books; for in them it is written that Nebuchadnezzar, in the eighteenth year of his reign, laid our temple desolate, and so it lay in that state of obscurity for fifty years; but that in the second year of the reign of Cyrus its foundations were laid, and it was finished again in the second year of Darius." - Against Apion, 1, xxi.

    As this was from his later research and work, this figure obviously supersedes his earlier figures. But you also know this already.

    Babylonian history or Chronicles have nothing to say whatsoever about the seventy years. Its silence on this vital piece of Judean and Babylonian history is quite telling.

    Gimme a break. Telling of what? Simply that some 2000-2500 year old crumbling historical tablets didn't survive to the 19th/20th centuries!

  • scholar
    scholar

    AnnOMaly

    Post 1388

    As I have said many times I post to amuse and defend not to convert. But it is you and your supporters that jump to attention when I post.

    The two passages where Jeremiah refers to the seventy years of Judah with desolation-exile-servitude are Jeremiah 25:8-11; 29:10.

    Exactly and this is what those men did, all referred to Jeremiah's twin prophecies.

    Josephus an historian of some eminence supported these views.

    The fifty years of Josephus has been viewed by scholars as a textual error, the other possibility is that he was referring to Berossus on this point or that he was making a observation within the context of the sev enty years whic Josephus describes running from the Fall to the Return.

    Give me a break. All of those secular documents make no mention of the seventy years as you well know for if they did you would have used that material.

    scholar JW

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    silly scholar: "The fifty years of Josephus has been viewed by scholars as a textual error..."

    And we can assume that these "scholars" are:

    Any other prominent pyramidology scholars that should be added to this list of Josephus detractors?

  • garyneal
    garyneal

    scholar

    Post 1880

    Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the seventy years ended in 539 BCE.

    This is true. No dates are given for any of these events and according to garyneal's research, Bible chronology dealing with dates from this period must be counted against the 539 B.C.E. point of reference. One thing is clear, the historical evidence shows that Babylon was captured in 539 B.C.E.. This is something both secular scholars and celebrated WT scholars agree to.

    Soooo....

    Jeremiah 25:12-14
    12 "But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation, the land of the Babylonians, for their guilt," declares the LORD, "and will make it desolate forever. 13 I will bring upon that land all the things I have spoken against it, all that are written in this book and prophesied by Jeremiah against all the nations. 14 They themselves will be enslaved by many nations and great kings; I will repay them according to their deeds and the work of their hands."

    According to garyneal's research, it seems to him that being captured in 539 B.C.E. is the beginning of the punishment spoken of in verses 12-14 of Jeremiah 25. His research has so far shown nothing that correlates with 537 B.C.E. save for the Watchtower's assertion that the Jews return to Jerusalem that year. Evidently, the celebrated WT scholars believe that it took the Jews two years to return to Jerusalem from Babylon after its capture in 539 B.C.E..

    But to ensure that garyneal is not misled, he looked up the other scripture you cited (Jeremiah 29:10) and has found this.

    Jeremiah 29:10
    10 This is what the LORD says: "When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my gracious promise to bring you back to this place.

    A straight reading from the text shows that when the seventy years are complete, the LORD will come to them (assuming Jews), and fulfil the promise to bring them back to this place (assuming Jerusalem). It did not say that the LORD has already brought them back which is what the celebrated WT scholars has said to occur in 537 B.C.E. by implication from their assertion that it took the Jews two years to return.

    What evidence can you present from Ezra, Daniel, Zechariah, and Josephus to prove that the 70 years ended in 537 B.C.E.? It appears that Ann O Maly does not agree with you on this. Where is your proof?

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Thanks B the X. That list of 'celebrate WT scholars' really does look quite convincing and casts much doubt on Josephus. LOL

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