Thought Control (A simple test for JW's)

by TD 143 Replies latest jw friends

  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5

    You picked the nonexsistant "D" because to pick any of the other 3 you would have to admit you and the WT are wrong and having been lying and misrepresenting yourselves. You're not fooling anyone Alice.

    And I think this is hilarious:

    Get some understanding on the fallacy of quoting out of context.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context Fallacy of quoting out of context

    The WT has made quoting out of context a fine art. Every quote they publish is out of context. What kills them is now folks can go back, google a quote, and find out what was really said and compare how the WT tries to twist it to fit in with their dishonest crap.

    Case in point:

    The Watchtower Society and Johannes Greber

    Ken Raines

    During the 1960s and 1970s, the Watchtower Society occasionally used the translation of the New Testament by Johannes Greber to support their similar renderings of John 1:1 and Matthew 27:52,53. In 1983 they officially stopped using his translation because of its "close rapport with spiritism." The information that Geber Was a Spiritist Was readily available to the Society's writers. In 1955 and 1956 the Society's writers themselves wrote of Greber's spiritism. Their use of Greber's translation to support their New World Translation and their explanations for it is evidence of shallow scholarship.

    Johannes Greber was a Catholic priest turned spiritist who translated the New Testament "with the help of God's spirits." His experiences with spirits and their communications with him are related in his book, Communication With the Spirit World published in 1932. (See previous article)

    Greber's translation reads similarly to the New World Translation at Jn. 1:1 and Matt. 27:52,53. The Society quoted and referred to it in support of their controversial renderings of these verses in material they published from 1961 to 1976.

    The Society Quotes Greber

    The Society's much disputed translation of Jn. 1:1 is "the Word was a god" in clause c. Since this translation is usually considered "tendentious" or even impossible by recognized scholars, the Society has sought support for this rendering in lesser known, and in some cases, obscure sources. They have, for example, quoted Johannes Greber's and John S. Thompson's translation that render it in the same manner. Both individuals apparently received this translation from spirits. [1]

    The Society quoted Greber's translation of Jn. 1:1 as if he was a noteworthy Greek scholar or authority in their publications The Word--Who Is He According to John, 1962, p. 5; The Watchtower, Sept. 15, 1962, p. 554; Make Sure of all Things, 1965, p. 489, and Aid to Bible Understanding, 1971, p. 1669.

    Greber's New Testament translation was also used by the Society in support of their unusual translation of Matt. 27:52,53. These verses describe an apparent resurrection at the time of Jesus' death. Most translations render these verses much like the NIV which has:

    The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

    The early church Father Ignatious apparently referred to a resurrection of some Old Testament "holy people" at the time of Jesus' death and resurrection that were seen in Jerusalem. [2] However, only Matthew's gospel records such an event in the Bible and the grammar of the Greek text here is somewhat ambiguous. Both the Society's and Greber's translations of these verses state that instead of a resurrection (neither believe in a bodily resurrection) there was simply a projection of dead bodies out of their graves as a result of the earthquake that accompanied Jesus' death and these dead bodies were thereafter seen by others who passed by on their way into Jerusalem.

    They quoted Greber's translation of these verses to support their similar translation in The Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1961, p. 30; Aid to Bible Understanding, 1971, p. 1134; The Watchtower, Oct. 15, 1975, p. 640, and The Watchtower, April 15, 1976, p. 231. http://www.seanet.com/~raines/wtgreber.html

    One more cut and paste that clearly outlines the WT's dishonesty in using quotes out of context (Please forgive me )

     Mantey and Barclay Letters to the Watchtower (with comments from Paul Thompson) In the past the Watchtower used Professor Julius Mantey's Greek Grammar Text to support their interpretation of John 1:1. The following is a copy of a letter sent by Professor Mantey to the Watchtower Society in regards to their misquoting him. Dear Sirs: I have a copy of your letter addressed to Caris in Santa Ana, California, and I am writing to express my disagreement with statements made in that letter, as well as in quotations you have made from the Dana-Mantey Greek Grammar. (1) Your statement: "their work allows for the rendering found in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures at John 1:1," There is no statement in our grammar that was ever meant to imply that "a god" was a permissible translation in John 1:1. A. We had no "rule" to argue in support of the trinity. B. Neither did we state that we did have such intention. We were simply delineating the facts inherent in Biblical language. C. You quotation from p. 148 (3) was a paragraph under the heading: "With the subject in a Copulative Sentence." Two examples occur here to illustrate that "the article points out the subject in these examples." But we made no statement in this paragraph about the predicate except that, "as it stands the other persons of the trinity may be implied ;in theos." And isn't that the opposite of what your translation "a god" infers? You quoted me out of context. On pages 139 and 140 (VI) in our grammar we stated: "without the article, theos signifies divine essence...'theos en ho logos' emphasizes Christ's participation in the essence of the divine nature." Our interpretation is in agreement with that in NEB and TED: "What God was, the Word was"; and with that of Barclay: "The nature of the Word was the same as the nature of God," which you quoted in you letter to Caris. (2) Since Colwell's and Harner's article in JBL, especially that of Harner, it is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 "The Word was a god." Word-order has made obsolete and incorrect such a rendering. (3) Your quotation of Colwell's rule is inadequate because it quotes only a part of his findings. You did not quote this strong assertion: "A predicate nominative which precedes the verb cannot be translated as an indefinite or a 'qualitative' noun solely because of the abcence of the article." (4) Prof. Harner, Vol 92:1 in JBL, has gone beyond Colwell's research and has discovered that anarthrous predicate nouns preceding the verb function primarily to express the nature or character of the subject. He found this true in 53 passages in the Gospel of John and 8 in the Gospel of Mark. Both scholars wrote that when indefiniteness was intended that gospel writers regularly placed the predicate noun after the verb, and both Colwell and Harner have stated that theos in John 1:1 is not indefinite and should not be translated "a god." Watchtower writers appear to be the only ones advocating such a translation now. The evidence appears to be 99% against them. (5) Your statement in your letter that the sacred text itself should guide one and "not just someone's rule book." We agree with you. But our study proves that Jehovah's Witnesses do the opposite of that whenever the "sacred text" differs with their heretical beliefs. For example the translation of kolasis as cutting off when punishment is the only meaning cited in the lexicons for it. The mistranslation of ego eimi as "I have been" in John 8:58, the addition of "for all time" in Heb. 9:27 when nothing in the Greek New Testament support is. The attempt to belittle Christ by mistranslating arche tes kriseos "beginning of the creation" when he is magnified as the "creator of all things" (John 1:2) and as "equal with God" (Phil. 2:6) before he humbled himself and lived a human body on earth. Your quotation of "The father is greater than I am, (John 14:28) to prove that Jesus was not equal to God overlooks the fact stated in Phil 2:6-8. When Jesus said that he was still in his voluntary state of humiliation. That state ended when he ascended to heaven. Why the attempt to deliberately deceive people by mispunctuation by placing a comma after "today" in Luke 23:43 when in the Greek, Latin, German and all English translations except yours, even in the Greek in you KIT, the comma occurs after lego (I say) - "Today you will be with me in Paradise." 2 Cor 5:8, "to be out of the body and at home with the Lord." These passages teach that the redeemed go immediately to heaven after death, which does not agree with your teachings that death ends all life until the resurrection. (Ps. 23:6 and Heb 1:10) The afore mentioned are only a few examples of Watchtower mistranslations and perversions of Gods Word. In view of the preceding facts, especially because you have been quoting me out of context, I herewith request you not to quote the Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament again, which you have been doing for 24 years. Also that you not quote it or me in any of your publications from this time on. Also that you publicly and immediately apologize in the Watchtower magazine, since my words had no relevance to the absence of the article before theos in John 1:1. And please write to Caris and state that you misused and misquoted my "rule." On the page before the preface in the grammar are these words: "All rights reserved - no part of this book may be reproduced in any form without permission in writing from the publisher." If you have such permission, please send me a photo-copy of it. If you do not heed these requests you will suffer the consequences. Regretfully yours, Julius R. Mantey --Comments by Paul Thompson--- To my knowledge the Watchtower never published any apology in the Watchtower magazine, nor any of its publications. If I am mistaken I am now requesting any Jehovah Witness to copy that apology and post it in the message section for my examination. If anyone is interested I also have a letter written by William Barclay whom they also quoted out of context in the Watchtower of 5\15\77 p. 319,320. I have room here and the letter is short so I will include it anyway!
    http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/apl/jw/jw-056.txt

  • peacedog
    peacedog

    lol @ "there is no contradiction between the two quotes"

    One is a post-1914 statement claiming that prior to 1914, JWs pointed to 1914 as the time for the second coming.

    One is a pre-1914 statement claiming that the second coming occurred in 1874.

    To the resident "apologist", thank you for so clearly and succinctly demonstrating your utter lack of integrity. Not only did you give me a chuckle, but such obvious cultic behavior goes a long way in helping others to see the JWs religion for what it is.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    Alice muddled through a simple quiz..But..

    Did make a choice whether she realise`s it or not..

    I pick D.

    A. The first quote is contradicted by the content and date of the second quote

    B. There is no contradiction between the two quotes

    C. Not sure

    D. The information is out of context and "There is no contridiction between the two quotes"

    Alice added a few words of her own and chose "B".....But..Called it "D"

    That Alice is so Clever!!..

    ......................... ...OUTLAW

  • cofty
    cofty

    Alice you have a dilemma now. Either persist with the obvious head-in-the-sand denial; problem is its getting really embarrassing now.

    Or you could say that the person who wrote all the later material was unaware of the previous teaching regarding 1799, 1878 etc and made a genuine mistake.

    In which case you need to select (A) and then plead mitigation.

    It seems TD is right, jw's really are capable of arguing 2+2=5

  • alice.in.wonderland
    alice.in.wonderland

    "lol @ "there is no contradiction between the two quotes"

    One is a post-1914 statement claiming that prior to 1914, JWs pointed to 1914 as the time for the second coming.

    One is a pre-1914 statement claiming that the second coming occurred in 1874.

    To the resident "apologist", thank you for so clearly and succinctly demonstrating your utter lack of integrity. Not only did you give me a chuckle, but such obvious cultic behavior goes a long way in helping others to see the JWs religion for what it is."

    "We would like to correct this misapprehension once for all, by stating that we do not expect Jesus to come this year, nor any other year, for we believe that all time prophecies (bearing upon Jesus' coming) ended at and before the fall of 1874, and that He came there, and the second advent is now in progress and will continue during the entire Millennial age." (Zion's Watch Tower May 1881 p. 5)

    This was stated because of the second coming of Christ as taught by Christendom. Seventh-day Adventists were expecting Jesus coming to be literal, personal and visible in 1881. Jesus second coming was in progress after his resurrection and ascension on the Mount of Olives as recorded in (Ac 1:9, 12), near the town of Bethany (Lu 24:50), which town lies on the eastern side of the Mount of Olives. The exceptions of the Seventh-day Adventists had long since taken place and no reenactment took place in 1881, unlike what took place in 1914 that confirmed Jesus invisible presence.

    http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

    The second coming of Christ is the blessed hope of the church, the grand climax of the gospel. The Saviour's coming will be literal, personal, visible, and worldwide. When He returns, the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven, but the unrighteous will die. The almost complete fulfillment of most lines of prophecy, together with the present condition of the world, indicates that Christ's coming is imminent. The time of that event has not been revealed, and we are therefore exhorted to be ready at all times.

    w53 7/15 p. 447 Questions From Readers

    How can it be said that Christ’s second presence is as an invisible spirit and not as a visible body, in view of Revelation 1:7?—J. E., Illinois.

    John 14:19 clearly states that Christ will not come again in visible form: “A little longer and the world will behold me no more.” (NW) After his death as a human creature he was raised a spirit creature, invisible to human eyes, and it is in this invisible spirit form that he will remain at the time of his second presence. This is not contradicted by Acts 1:11 (NW), concerning Jesus’ ascension: “This Jesus who was received up from you into heaven will come thus in the same manner as you have beheld him going into heaven.” It does not say that those disciples who saw him ascend would see him come again, nor does it say that those who would be on earth at the future time would see him in a visible form. They were not discussing his form at all relative to his second presence, but spoke of his coming as being in the same manner as his departure.

  • TD
    TD

    Alice,

    There are literally thousands of quotes to choose from showing that 1874 was believed to be the date for Christ's presence for the first 55 odd years of the Bible Student / Jehovah's Witnesses movements.

    That this would even be an issue is amazing. That fact is openly acknowledged here:

    The Watchtower August 15, 1974 p. 507

    Jehovah's Witnesses Proclaimers of God's Kingdom pp. 47, 133, 631, 632

    God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached pp. 188, 189

    The Proclaimers book even states this was not changed from 1874 to 1914 until 1943. (The actual date is somewhere around 1932-34)

    Therefore the Bible Students "Long before World War I" obviously could not have "pointed to 1914" as the time for Christ's presence to occur because they thought it already had occured.

    They did not decide that Christ's presence had commenced in 1914 until more than a decade after World War I, so the idea that they had pointed to 1914 prior to World War I is simply impossible. Again, this is just simple math.

  • Mad Dawg
    Mad Dawg

    Alice, your task is simple: provide a quote, pre-1914, that states that Jesus would come invisibily in 1914.

    BTW, you do realize that your quote from 1881 says that Jesus came back in 1874? There is nothing about 1914.

  • alice.in.wonderland
    alice.in.wonderland

    "Alice, your task is simple: provide a quote, pre-1914, that states that Jesus would come invisibily in 1914.

    BTW, you do realize that your quote from 1881 says that Jesus came back in 1874? There is nothing about 1914."

    This was a statement made in 1877:

    “It was in B.C. 606, that God’s kingdom ended, the diadem was removed, and all the earth given up to the Gentiles. 2520 years from B.C. 606, will end in A.D. 1914.” —The Three Worlds, published in 1877, page 83.

    Everything is clearly explained when conclusions are reached. It takes the outworking of events for some matters to be firmly established.

    w74 8/15 pp. 506-507 No Spiritual “Energy Crisis” for Discreet Ones

    In 1877, Russell joined Nelson H. Barbour in publishing the book Three Worlds, and the Harvest of This World. It indicated that the end of the Gentile Times in 1914 would be preceded by a forty-year period to open with a three-and-a-half-year harvest beginning in 1874 C.E. According to Bible chronology thereafter adopted, it was understood that 6,000 years of man’s existence on earth ended in 1872, whereas six millenniums of human sin concluded and the seventh millennium began in 1874. Christ’s presence was thought to have begun in October 1874, at the start of the great antitypical Jubilee.—Lev. chap. 25; Rev. 20:4.

    From that understanding, it was thought that the “chaste virgin” class began going forth to meet the Bridegroom in 1874. (2 Cor. 11:2) Hence, when C. T. Russell began publishing a new religious magazine in July 1879, it was called “Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence.” It was heralding Christ’s presence as having begun in 1874. This invisible presence was expected to continue until the Gentile Times ended in 1914, when the Gentile nations would be destroyed and the remnant of the “chaste virgin” class would be glorified with their Bridegroom in heaven by death and resurrection to live in the spirit. (1 Cor. 15:42-44) Thus would the “discreet virgin” class enter through the door into the wedding.

    The “chaste virgin” class endeavored to let their light shine as they approached the time when they expected to meet their Bridegroom in heaven. Finally, that day arrived—October 1, 1914. The Gentile Times ended, but the anticipated heavenly glorification of the church did not come about. In fact, it had not occurred by the time Russell himself died on October 31, 1916. Rather, great trouble and persecution came upon those desirous of meeting the Bridegroom. A climax was reached in the summer of 1918, when the Watch Tower Society’s new president, J. F. Rutherford, and seven other Christian men associated with headquarters were unjustly convicted and imprisoned.

    J. F. Rutherford spent only nine months in prison, not twenty years, as sentenced. He and his seven associates were released on March 25, 1919, and eventually they were exonerated completely. But the year 1919 was significant for another reason. As the slumbering virgins were aroused by the midnight cry that the bridegroom was coming, so in 1919 C.E. the fact of the heavenly Bridegroom’s presence in the Kingdom was thrust upon all who claimed to be virgins awaiting him.

    ka chap. 11 pp. 209-210 par. 55 “Here Is the Bridegroom!”

    In the year 1943 the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society published the book “The Truth Shall Make You Free.” In its chapter 11, entitled “The Count of Time,” it did away with the insertion of 100 years into the period of the Judges and went according to the oldest and most authentic reading of Acts 13:20, and accepted the spelled-out numbers of the Hebrew Scriptures. This moved forward the end of six thousand years of man’s existence into the decade of the 1970’s. Naturally this did away with the year 1874 C.E. as the date of return of the Lord Jesus Christ and the beginning of his invisible presence or parousia. The millennium that was to be marked by the detaining of Satan the Devil enchained in the abyss and by the reign of the 144,000 joint heirs with Christ in heavenly glory was therefore yet in the future. What, then, about the parousia (presence) of Christ? Page 324 of the above book positively says: “The King’s presence or parousia began in 1914.” Also, in the Watchtower issue of July 15, 1949 (page 215, paragraph 22), the statement is made: “ . . . Messiah, the Son of man, came into Kingdom power A.D. 1914 and . . . this constitutes his second coming and the beginning of his second parousía or presence.”

    I haven't ever observed that any of Jehovah's Witnesses, the Governing Body and Watchtower writing committee included claim to be visionaries. If this is what some expect you should probably call upon God for a supernatural vision into the future. Untill then I think you should admit these exceptions are a bit high and are unreasonable.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visionary

    Defined narrowly, a visionary is one who purportedly experiences a vision or apparition connected to the supernatural. At times this involves seeing into the future.

    it-2 p. 1160 Visionary

    A man who had or claimed to have visions from God regarding concealed or future matters. The Hebrew word for “visionary” is cho·zeh′, from cha·zah′, meaning “behold; vision.” Cha·zah′ and its derivatives are employed with reference to seeing visions.—Nu 24:4; Isa 1:1; 21:2; 22:1; Eze 13:7; Da 8:1; see SEER.

  • elderelite
    elderelite
    “It was in B.C. 606, that God’s kingdom ended, the diadem was removed, and all the earth given up to the Gentiles. 2520 years from B.C. 606, will end in A.D. 1914.” —The Three Worlds, published in 1877, page 83.

    Alice, dear sis Alice, that was said because they thought the world was ending in 1914, not because they thought Christs invisible presence would START. see quote below :

    It was heralding Christ’s presence as having begun in 1874. This invisible presence was expected to continue until the Gentile Times ended in 1914, when the Gentile nations would be destroyed and the remnant of the “chaste virgin” class would be glorified with their Bridegroom in heaven by death and resurrection to live in the spirit.
    The “chaste virgin” class endeavored to let their light shine as they approached the time when they expected to meet their Bridegroom in heaven. Finally, that day arrived—October 1, 1914. The Gentile Times ended, but the anticipated heavenly glorification of the church did not come about. In fact, it had not occurred by the time Russell himself died on October 31, 1916

    Alice, did you read the first post carefully? everything you posted supports the conclusion TD proposes... and in true "1984" fashion, you missed it. Just for laughs, and because its considered a classic, try reading 1984... you may find it enlightening, if a bit depressing. or maybe when your done, you will simply think to yourself "i love big brother". after you read the novel, that statement will have a whole new meaning for you. Or not.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW
    I haven't ever observed that any of Jehovah's Witnesses, the Governing Body and Watchtower writing committee included claim to be visionaries.
    If this is what some expect you should probably call upon God for a supernatural vision into the future.
    Untill then I think you should admit these exceptions are a bit high and are unreasonable.....AIW

    .................... ...OUTLAW

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