Thought Control (A simple test for JW's)

by TD 143 Replies latest jw friends

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  TD

  Alice,

  “It was in B.C. 606, that God’s kingdom ended, the diadem was removed, and all the earth given up to the Gentiles. 2520 years from B.C. 606, will end in A.D. 1914."

  Barbour and Russell held that the end of the "Gentile Times" in 1914 was distinct from the commencement of Christ's presence in 1874. They were separated by a forty year, "harvest work."

  None of the examples I gave involved the end of the "Gentile Times" because that has always been 1914 and is actually the one single time element from the Russell era that is still retained today.

  I haven't ever observed that any of Jehovah's Witnesses, the Governing Body and Watchtower writing committee included claim to be visionaries. If this is what some expect you should probably call upon God for a supernatural vision into the future. Untill then I think you should admit these exceptions are a bit high and are unreasonable.

  There's nothing wrong with the fact that the significance attached to the years 1799, 1878, 1874 was eventually discarded. I have been very clear about that, making statements to that effect twice on this thread.

  However in view of the fact that those dates were once taught, there are certain things that obviously cannot be said today about the Bible Students prior to 1914:

  It cannot be said that they pointed forward to 1914 as the date for Christ's invisible return.

  It cannot be said that they pointed forward to 1914 as the date for the heavenly birth of God's kindgdom

  It cannot be said that they preached the good news of that heavenly established kingdom at or before 1914.

  It cannot be said that they pointed forward to 1914 as the date for Christ to receive kingly power

  It cannot be said that they pointed forward to 1914 as the beginning of the "Time of the end."

  You could write it off to imperfection and poor research if you like, but there is no denying that statements do appear in modern literature that clash with Bible Student history fairly regularly.

  Are incorrect statements of this type in JW literature really that hard to acknowledge?
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  serenitynow!

  "Fulfilled prophecy shows beyond a doubt that he did appear in 1874. Fulfilled prophecy is otherwise designated the physical facts: and these facts are indisputable." (The Watch Tower November 1, 1922 p. 333)"

  TD, did the rest of the above article actually enumerate the "indisputable facts?" Reading your test I have started to feel ill. So many contradictions, how can we not have seen them?
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  TD

  TD, did the rest of the above article actually enumerate the "indisputable facts?"

  Actually, no....

  "Bible prophecy shows that the Lord was due to appear for the second time in the year 1874. Fulfilled prophecy shows beyond a doubt that he did appear in 1874. Fulfilled prophecy is otherwise designated the physical facts; and these facts are indisputable. All true watchers are familiar with these facts as set forth in the Scriptures and explained in the interpretation by the Lord's special servant"

  This was the convention discourse given by Rutherford at Cedar Point in 1922. --The one he ended by saying "Advertise, advertise, advertise the King and his kingdom."

  The "Lord's special servant" was a reference to Russell who was held to be the "Faithful and wise servant" at the time.

  Another excerpt:

  "The gentile times under the supervision of the god of this world ended August 1, 1914. Before that date it would not have been consistent for the Lord; the King of glory, to take unto himself his great power and begin to reign. Since he has been present since 1874, it follows, from the facts as we now know them, that the period from 1874 to 1914 is the day of preparation. This in no wise militates against the thought that "the time of the end" is from 1799 until 1914. That period from 1799 to 1874 could not be said to be a day of preparatin, but a day of increasing light. It is not reasonable to think that the King began to make preparations until he was present."
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  alice.in.wonderland

  OUTLAW, this explains one of the reasons 1925 held importance to the early Bible students. A divine revelation isn't cited as one of the reasons.
  
  w84 2/15 pp. 23-24 Always Ready for the End
  
  The year 1925 also held expectations for Jehovah’s servants. It was thought that a cycle of 70 typical Jubilees (70 × 50 years) from the time Israel entered the Promised Land would end in 1925 and mark the beginning of the great antitypical Jubilee, the Millennial Reign of Christ Jesus. It did not turn out that way.
  
  However, our family came to appreciate that unrealized hopes are not unique to our day. The apostles themselves had similar misplaced expectations. They envisioned the resurrected Jesus Christ as restoring the nation of Israel to its former glory as Jehovah’s chosen people under theocratic rule, breaking the viselike domination of the Romans. They asked Jesus: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” He answered, “It does not belong to you to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.” (Acts 1:6, 7) That same basic point has applied to the ‘faithful slave class’ today. There is an alertness, a searching to know God’s purpose, at times even an overeagerness to see the end of the world’s wicked system—but the exact timing of events is in Jehovah’s jurisdiction.—Matthew 24:34-36, 45-47.
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  alice.in.wonderland

  I haven't observed that anything the society has published was poorly researched. This may be automatic in the mind of opposers so this an opinion from my POV.
  
  The early Bible students didn't know exactly what would happen in 1914 so they couldn't necessarily attribute an unknown event to God's adversary being permanently expelled from heaven and focusing all his attention on earth: Satanic aggravation.
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  TD

  I haven't observed that anything the society has published was poorly researched. This may be automatic in the mind of opposers so this an opinion from my POV.

  You really seem to be having a hard time here, Alice. I'm sorry.

  "Poor research" was only a suggestion as one possible alternative to a much less charitable conclusion. I was trying to be gracious.

  In truth, I honestly don't know why modern JW literature is sometimes at odds with Bible Student history.
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  Black Sheep

  OUTLAW, this explains one of the reasons 1925 held importance to the early Bible students. A divine revelation isn't cited as one of the reasons.

  Yeah, right.

  In this day of greater enlightenment God has put a new
  song into the mouths of the true followers of Jesus. These
  have the harps of God, the harmonious truths, and are sing-
  ing praises to Jehovah. They are showing forth his loving
  kindness and tender mercies. They are telling of the blessings
  that the Lord has in store not only for the truly consecrated
  but the blessing’s that will soon come to the whole
  world. This message, like the message of their prototype
  Isaiah, is not favorably received. Although presented in a
  kind and loving manner, it is met by scoffers from nominal
  Israel, those who worship human theories and creeds and
  love them more than the message of the Lord.
  
  
  Those who would speak the message of present truth in
  love, and yet with courage and fearlessness of man, need
  just such an encouragement as the Lord granted to Isaiah.
  They need that the eyes of their understanding be granted
  a vision of the King in his beauty; and they need to hear
  distinctly uttered the fact that ultimately the Lord shall
  establish his kingdom, which shall fill the whole earth with
  his glory. And just such a view and such a message the
  Lord is now granting to those whom he would use as his
  servants and mouthpieces. The present truth, the eating
  of the "meat in due season" now provided by our present
  Lord, affords his faithful a waking vision of the Lord’s
  glory, never conceived of before, but now clearly recognized
  by the eye of faith, in the light of the clearer truth. In
  this light we see the divine character as never before. Wisdom,
  justice, love and power are fully operating in absolute
  accord in all the great work of our God, comprehending
  the past, the present and the future.
  
  ZWT April 1, 1922, Page 107
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  OUTLAW

  OUTLAW, this explains one of the reasons 1925 held importance to the early Bible students.

  A divine revelation isn't cited as one of the reasons.....AIW

  Alice..

  Telling the world....."Millions now living will never die" makes the WBT$ a Visionary..

  The idea was both Impractical and Utopian..

  Both of those words describe "Visionary",if you ever care to open a dictionary..

  Your a "Bullshit Artist" Alice..And.. Not a very good one..

  You are so easily proven wrong..Time after time..

  .................... ...OUTLAW
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  alice.in.wonderland

  "Telling the world....."Millions now living will never die" makes the WBT$ a Visionary.."

  “Millions now living will never die“ is a concept found in numerous places in the Bible.
  
  And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:13-14
  
  re chap. 23 p. 152 par. 12 The Second Woe—Armies of Cavalry

  From 1918 to 1922, the John class began to hold out to distressed humanity the happy prospect that “millions now living will never die.” In 1923 it was also made known that the sheep of Matthew 25:31-34 would inherit life on earth under God’s Kingdom. A similar hope was held out in the booklet Freedom for the Peoples, released at the international convention in 1927. In the early 1930’s the upright Jehonadab class and the ‘men sighing and groaning’ over Christendom’s sorry spiritual condition were shown to be identical with the symbolic sheep having earthly life prospects. (Ezekiel 9:4; 2 Kings 10:15, 16) Directing such ones to the modern-day “cities of refuge,” The Watchtower of August 15, 1934, stated: “Those of the Jonadab class have heard the sound of God’s trumpet and have heeded the warning by fleeing to God’s organization and associating with God’s people, and there they must abide.”—Numbers 35:6.
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  Galileo

  A little advice, Alice: Put your arguments in your own words. Enough already with the copy and pasting. I gloss over your copy & pasted articles trying to find your thoughts on them. I'm sure most others do as well. The reason is that many, if not most, of us here are very familiar with the WTB&TS's stance and reasoning points on these issues. I myself gave public talks for many years and was married to a regular pioneer. I understand how they reason. I disagree with it. I'm not interested in reading reprinted WT articles. Tell us what YOU think. Respond directly. Reference articles if you wish, but don't copy and paste. Any of us could look that stuff up on the CD ROM if we cared to.