by UnDisfellowshipped 203 Replies latest jw friends
"The apostate roams free like a lion and the true Christian like myself are kept down..."
No, moron, you're not nearly as important as important as you think you are...
If "Satan" actually existed, "He'd" take one look at you and throw you back as the "minnow" that you are...
ALL 'newbies' are limited to ONE topic per 24-hour period...
Sheesh... What a MaROON!!!
djeggnog:
Thank you so much for posting actual answers to some of my questions! It was refreshing to see you and Alice actually participate in this thread.
I will be replying to the comments on this thread soon (probably tomorrow). Apologize for the delay. Had a crazy week at work. lol.
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To others:
To reiterate, I stand firmly behind what I said about name-calling.
Name-calling is a logical fallacy which does not help out your argument at all, no matter which side you are on.
Using a logical fallacy to fight another logical fallacy doesn't make sense.
According to the Watchtower Society, BANE and Alice would be APOSTATES! Read this article and see for yourself:
The Watchtower, April 1st, 1986, Pages 30-31:
Questions From Readers
· Why have Jehovah’s Witnesses disfellowshipped (excommunicated) for apostasy some who still profess belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ?
Those who voice such an objection point out that many religious organizations claiming to be Christian allow dissident views. Even some clergymen disagree with basic teachings of their church, yet they remain in good standing. In nearly all the denominations of Christendom, there are modernists and fundamentalists who greatly disagree with one another as to the inspiration of the Scriptures.
However, such examples provide no grounds for our doing the same. Why not? Many of such denominations allow widely divergent views among the clergy and the laity because they feel they cannot be certain as to just what is Bible truth. They are like the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus’ day who were unable to speak as persons having authority, which is how Jesus taught. (Matthew 7:29) Moreover, to the extent that religionists believe in interfaith, they are obligated not to take divergent beliefs too seriously.
But taking such a view of matters has no basis in the Scriptures. Jesus did not make common cause with any of the sects of Judaism. Jews of those sects professed to believe in the God of creation and in the Hebrew Scriptures, particularly the Law of Moses. Still, Jesus told his disciples to “watch out . . . for the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” (Matthew 16:11, 12; 23:15) Note also how strongly the apostle Paul stated matters: “Even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond what we declared to you as good news, let him be accursed.” Paul then repeated that statement for emphasis.—Galatians 1:8, 9.
Teaching dissident or divergent views is not compatible with true Christianity, as Paul makes clear at 1 Corinthians 1:10: “I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.” (New International Version) At Ephesians 4:3-6 he further stated that Christians should be “earnestly endeavoring to observe the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace. One body there is, and one spirit, even as you were called in the one hope to which you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all persons.”
Was this unity to be achieved and maintained by each one’s independently searching the Scriptures, coming to his own conclusions, and then teaching these? Not at all! Through Jesus Christ, Jehovah God provided for this purpose “some as apostles, . . . some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers . . . until we all attain to the oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man.” Yes, with the help of such ministers, congregational unity—oneness in teaching and activity—could be and would be possible.—Ephesians 4:11-13.
Obviously, a basis for approved fellowship with Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot rest merely on a belief in God, in the Bible, in Jesus Christ, and so forth. The Roman Catholic pope, as well as the Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury, professes such beliefs, yet their church memberships are exclusive of each other. Likewise, simply professing to have such beliefs would not authorize one to be known as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. What do such beliefs include?
That the great issue before humankind is the rightfulness of Jehovah’s sovereignty, which is why he has allowed wickedness so long. (Ezekiel 25:17) That Jesus Christ had a prehuman existence and is subordinate to his heavenly Father. (John 14:28) That there is a “faithful and discreet slave” upon earth today ‘entrusted with all of Jesus’ earthly interests,’ which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ’s foretold presence. (Luke 21:7-24; Revelation 11:15–12:10) That only 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward. (Revelation 14:1, 3) That Armageddon, referring to the battle of the great day of God the Almighty, is near. (Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21) That it will be followed by Christ’s Millennial Reign, which will restore an earth-wide paradise. That the first to enjoy it will be the present “great crowd” of Jesus’ “other sheep.”—John 10:16; Revelation 7:9-17; 21:3, 4.
Do we have Scriptural precedent for taking such a strict position? Indeed we do! Paul wrote about some in his day: “Their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” (2 Timothy 2:17, 18; see also Matthew 18:6.) There is nothing to indicate that these men did not believe in God, in the Bible, in Jesus’ sacrifice. Yet, on this one basic point, what they were teaching as to the time of the resurrection, Paul rightly branded them as apostates, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship.
Similarly, the apostle John termed as antichrists those who did not believe that Jesus had come in the flesh. They may well have believed in God, in the Hebrew Scriptures, in Jesus as God’s Son, and so on. But on this point, that Jesus had actually come in the flesh, they disagreed and thus were termed “antichrist.” John goes on to say regarding those holding such variant views: “If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.”—2 John 7, 10, 11.
Following such Scriptural patterns, if a Christian (who claims belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus) unrepentantly promotes false teachings, it may be necessary for him to be expelled from the congregation. (See Titus 3:10, 11.) Of course, if a person just has doubts or is uninformed on a point, qualified ministers will lovingly assist him. This accords with the counsel: “Continue showing mercy to some that have doubts; save them by snatching them out of the fire.” (Jude 22, 23) Hence, the true Christian congregation cannot rightly be accused of being harshly dogmatic, but it does highly value and work toward the unity encouraged in God’s Word.
Alice said:
"The Governing Body is not the sole channel of communication between God and mankind. God's word and guidance by God’s spirit as application to all Christians. The administrative position in Jehovah's Organization is simply to maintain orderliness as is any administrative position in a profit or non-profit organization."
MY COMMENTS:
Alice is saying that the Governing Body is NOT the sole Channel of Communication between God and mankind, and that ALL Christians have the same access to the holy spirit and the Bible. Alice says that the Governing Body is ONLY there to maintain orderliness.
Alice also said:
"Although they were joined by others of the “older men” in such supervision, the administrative position formed a principal part of the expanding Christian congregation, and this body was recognized by the early Christians everywhere as a channel used by God to aid in rendering decisions and directing the affairs of congregations throughout the earth, not as a channel of communication that supersedes the Bible."
"Such help [from the holy spirit] enabled them to recall Jesus’ instructions and teachings, to clarify points of doctrine, and to be progressively guided “into all the truth” revealed through them at that apostolic period. [...] The same thing applies to all Christians, so when certain decisions are reached by the Governing Body the decisions are easy to reflect upon and understand."
MY COMMENTS:
So, Alice is saying that the SAME operation of the holy spirit that the Governing Body receives is available to ALL Christians, and that the Governing Body is NOT a "Channel of Communication which supersedes the Bible."
However, The Watchtower says this:
Watchtower, June 15th, 1957, Page 370:
It is vital that we ... respond to the directions of the “slave” as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision.
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The Watchtower, December 1st, 1981, Page 27:
Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his “faithful and discreet slave,” made up of spirit-anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do.—Compare Acts 8:30-40.
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Watchtower, April 1st, 1962, Page 215:
For one to receive holy spirit he must also be in touch with God’s channel of communication. Just as in the days of Jesus and the apostles receiving of holy spirit was dependent upon contact with God’s channel of communication, his earthly representatives, so also today. The facts show that that channel is found with the New World society of Jehovah’s witnesses.—Acts 19:1-7.
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The Watchtower, October 1st, 1994, Page 8:
CHANNEL TO UNDERSTANDING THE BIBLE
JESUS assured us that after his death and resurrection, he would raise up a “faith-ful and discreet slave” that would serve as his channel of communication. (Matthew 24:45-47) The apostle Paul identified this channel to the Ephesian Christians when he wrote that “there might be made known through the congregation the greatly diversified wisdom of God, according to the eternal purpose that he formed in connection with the Christ, Jesus our Lord.” (Ephesians 3:10, 11) It was the congregation of anointed Christians, born at Pentecost 33 C.E., that was entrusted with the “things revealed.” (Deuteronomy 29:29) As a group, anointed Christians serve as the faithful and discreet slave. (Luke 12:42-44) Their appointed assignment from God is to provide spiritual understanding of the “things revealed.”
Even as Bible prophecy pointed forward to the Messiah, it also directs us to the close-knit body of anointed Christian Witnesses that now serve as the faithful and discreet slave. It helps us to understand the Word of God. All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the “greatly diversified wisdom of God” can become known only through Jehovah’s channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave.—John 6:68.
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Watchtower, July 15th, 1958, Page 440:
Do not openly or secretly challenge Jehovah’s channel of communication, as Korah, Dathan and Abiram did, lest the earth swallow you up and you lose your place among those who will live in the new world.
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Watchtower, February 1st, 1958, Page 79:
We must always remember that we learn the truth from Jehovah’s channel of communication, the “faithful and discreet slave” class. (Matt. 24:45-47) We receive of his spirit by our continued association with his channel.
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Watchtower, September 1st, 1991, Pages 18-19:
What of modern times? As foretold at Matthew 24:3, 45-47, the Master, Jesus Christ, has appointed “the faithful and discreet slave,” made up of anointed Christians, to care for all his belongings on earth during this day of his presence. That faithful and discreet slave is represented today by the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses, which has as its publicity agent the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. Most appropriately, that faithful and discreet slave has also been called God’s channel of communication.
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Watchtower, June 15th, 1987, Pages 19-20:
How have God’s people responded to such progressive enlightenment? All along, there have been a few who could not accept certain adjustments. These were ‘winnowed out.’ (Matthew 3:12) On the other hand, how happy Jehovah’s loyal servants are for such spiritual enlightenment! At a time when Christendom gropes in spiritual darkness, the path of Jehovah’s people grows brighter and brighter. Should we not be determined to stick closely to the channel of communication that Jehovah is using, accepting all such progressive enlightenments as “food at the proper time”?—Matthew 24:45.
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Watchtower, April 1st, 1986, Pages 30-31:
Why have Jehovah’s Witnesses disfellowshipped (excommunicated) for apostasy some who still profess belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ? [...] Teaching dissident or divergent views is not compatible with true Christianity
[...] Was this unity to be achieved and maintained by each one’s independently searching the Scriptures, coming to his own conclusions, and then teaching these? Not at all!
[...] Obviously, a basis for approved fellowship with Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot rest merely on a belief in God, in the Bible, in Jesus Christ, and so forth.
[...] Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. What do such beliefs include? [...] That there is a “faithful and discreet slave” upon earth today ‘entrusted with all of Jesus’ earthly interests,’ which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ’s foretold presence. (Luke 21:7-24; Revelation 11:15–12:10) That only 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward. (Revelation 14:1, 3)
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Watchtower, October 1st, 1967, Page 591:
Make haste to identify the visible theocratic organization of God that represents his king, Jesus Christ. It is essential for life. Doing so, be complete in accepting its every aspect. We cannot claim to love God, yet deny his Word and channel of communication.
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Watchtower, January 1st, 1966, Page 44:
Moses as his visible representative served as a channel of communication for the nation of Israel.—Ex. 3:10, 16.
Today the anointed spirit-begotten witnesses of Jehovah, comprising the “faithful and discreet slave,” serve as an earthly channel of communication for the great crowd of people who will survive Armageddon. These anointed witnesses along with the “great crowd” of companions form the modern-day Christian organization through which God’s spirit is in operation. (Matt. 24:45-51; Rev. 7:9-17) Never has God had more than one channel of communication at one time. Failure to recognize and associate with his anointed witnesses would certainly indicate that one is not in Jehovah God’s organization and under his spirit. Unfortunately, the Israelites forgot the value of right association and congregated with those outside the gates of Israelite cities, as we read in the Psalms: “And they went mingling with the nations and took up learning their works. And they kept serving their idols, and these came to be a snare to them.”—Ps. 106:35, 36.
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Watchtower, June 1st, 1965, Page 331:
This “slave” class serves as an earthly channel of communication for God’s people, providing them with an understanding of Jehovah’s purposes and giving them direction in the doing of his will. With such direction they are enlightened, strengthened and are united in their worship of the only true and living God. Without this means of communication they would be scattered and lost.
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Watchtower, July 15th, 1961, Pages 431-432:
From a study of God’s Word one appreciates that Jehovah does not dispense his dynamic energy through just any organization that chooses to label itself religious. Neither does God deal with individuals independently of his own wifely organization, the “mother” of all those dedicated to God. (Gal. 4:26) He has always had His channel of communication on earth through which his spirit operates. Remember how Miriam and Aaron tried to bypass this channel and almost lost their lives as a result?Only after Jesus had been baptized by Jehovah’s representative did he receive holy spirit and strength to enable him to do his powerful works. (Num. 12:1-16; Matt. 3:16; Acts 10:38) By and through this holy spirit Jesus aided those associated with him so they could understand the truth, and so they too could receive power to “cure sick people, raise up dead persons, make lepers clean, expel demons.” Thus is emphasized the importance of association with Jehovah’s organization.—Matt. 10:8; Luke 24:45; 1 Cor. 2:10.
As in the past, so also today Jehovah has his visible organization on earth and by means of it an understanding of His will unfolds. This organization is also needed to integrate the efforts of all Christians throughout the many nations so there is no duplication of effort or disunity of action. For these added reasons, then, association with this organization is essential if one hopes to receive Jehovah’s spirit.
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Watchtower, July 15th, 1960, Page 439:
... after 1919. [...] The facts show that during this time and up to the present hour the “slave” class has served as God’s sole collective channel for the flow of Biblical truth to men on earth. Just as the early Christian congregation collectively served as the channel of communication from heaven to earth, so in our time. (Eph. 3:10) Abundant spiritual food and amazing details as to the doing of God’s will have been flowing through this unique channel actually as a miraculous evidence of the operation of holy spirit. The present stature of the New World society of Jehovah’s witnesses, numbering nearly a million ministers in 175 lands, gives eloquent testimony that it is not the product of human ingenuity. Rather, it is the product of holy spirit operating theocratically through a tested channel, influencing the lives of dedicated men and women in all walks of life.—Zech. 4:6.
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Watchtower, October 1st, 1959, Page 583:
Although today the Greater Noah, Jesus Christ, is not visibly present, God’s people are not left without visible direction. The facts show that Christ has a composite “faithful and discreet slave,” the remaining ones of the body of Christ, to represent him. This slave serves as God’s channel of communication. To act consistently with our baptism for life and into the Greater Noah we must submit to and cooperate with that slave and its legal instrument, the Watch Tower Society. It publishes Bibles and Bible-study aids, arranges for various kinds of meetings for Bible instruction and operates a training program designed to aid all sincere Christians to become qualified to preach “this good news of the kingdom.”—Matt. 24:14, 45-47.
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Watchtower, August 1st, 1958, Page 474:
It is only through his channel of communication that Jehovah now is using that an individual obtains accurate knowledge of the truth
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Live Forever Book (1989 Edition), Page 255:
Do not conclude that there are different roads, or ways, that you can follow to gain life in God’s new system. There is only one. There was just the one ark that survived the Flood, not a number of boats. And there will be only one organization—God’s visible organization—that will survive the fast-approaching “great tribulation.” It is simply not true that all religions lead to the same goal. (Matthew 7:21-23; 24:21) You must be part of Jehovah’s organization, doing God’s will, in order to receive his blessing of everlasting life.—Psalm 133:1-3._____________________________________________
So, Alice claims that the Governing Body is ONLY there to help Christians stay organized, and that it is NOT the sole Channel of Communication between God and mankind. But, as you can clearly see from the above Watchtower Statements, the Watchtower Society teaches exactly the opposite of Alice.
The Watchtower Publications teach (at least from 1950 until the present 2010) this:
1:) Unless you are associated with and obedient to The Channel of Communication (Governing Body, Faithful Slave), you CANNOT understand the Bible correctly.
2:) Unless you are associated with and obedient to The Channel of Communication (Governing Body, Faithful Slave), you CANNOT receive the holy spirit.
3:) Unless you are associated with and obedient to The Channel of Communication (Governing Body, Faithful Slave), you WILL NOT survive Armageddon.
4:) You MUST respond to the direction of The Channel of Communication (Governing Body, Faithful Slave) as you would respond to the VOICE OF GOD.
Conclusion: Alice/Rachel is an apostate.
BANE said:
You cannot have it both ways Un. First you say it is for ACTIVE Witnesses, then you slyly try to say at the end of your statement that it is for apostates... MAKE UP YOUR MIND.
Which is it? Is this an apostate site or is it for Jehovah´s witnesses? If you say it´s for Jehovah´s witnesses, then WHY do you say I am reading apostate writings here? If you say it´s for apostates, then WHY shouldn´t the site name be changed to something that is more appropiate?
You and the others are demanding I comment on these so I am demanding something of you first. I don´t see what the big deal is. Change the site because IF this is an apostate site as the apostates claim it is, I don´t want to see my brothers get bamboozled by the junk going on around here.
MY REPLY:
This website allows ANYONE to post here (as long as they abide by the website's rules). This "ANYONE" includes active Jehovah's Witnesses and former Jehovah's Witnesses, as well as non-Witnesses.
The difference between this website and the Watchtower Society is that here ANYONE has the FREEDOM to express their opinions and beliefs without having their family shun them or be threatened with God destroying them eternally.
I am attempting to get you to THINK DEEPLY about the inconsistencies in your beliefs and actions.
If you claim to represent the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses as a FAITHFUL Witness of Jehovah, then why would you DISOBEY the direct statements from the Watchtower Publications, which say that ALL Jehovah's Witnesses should STAY AWAY from "Apostates" and HAVE NO DEALINGS WITH THEM?
Why would you DISOBEY the Governing Body and come here and attempt to "CHALLENGE THE APOSTATES"?
According to the Watchtower Publications, by "Challenging" or debating, or speaking to or listening to "Apostates", you have in fact, become spiritually sick and weak, and are yourself possibly an Apostate now.
Actually, according to the 1986 Questions From Readers, YOU BANE ARE AN APOSTATE NOW, because you have claimed to have Biblical authority given to you from Jesus that allows you to speak to Apostates and listen to Apostates, which the Governing Body says is NOT given to you.
You are welcome to post here. You have the freedom to express your beliefs and opinions, however, the Watchtower Society forbids you to speak to us "Apostates."
Are you willing to go to your local Elders and openly tell them that you are posting here speaking to Apostates and listening to Apostates?
If not, why not?
Outlaw,
I understand why you are angry and/or upset with BANE, and I can even understand why you think he is not actually a Jehovah's Witness.
However, the point I was trying to make was, that if there are any actual Jehovah's Witnesses who are watching these threads, then perhaps it would be more helpful to them and less of a put-off if we refrain from name-calling toward someone who claims to be a Witness.
We don't want this website to end up with the same reputation as the Society do we? We don't want to be known for shunning and name-calling and personal attacks do we?
BANE said:
I haven´t acted in any way that the bible doesn´t give me power to. Jesus called the apostates vipers and snakes. I do the same. Are you saying I shouldn´t follow my lord? So there. I never want that point EVER AGAIN to be talked to of me because I just defeated it with a scriptural example.
By claiming to have extra authority BEYOND what the Governing Body has authorized you to have, then BANE, according to the Watchtower Society, you no longer have approved association with Jehovah's Witnesses, and you can possibly be classifed as an "APOSTATE" yourself now:
The Watchtower, April 1st, 1986, Pages 30-31:
Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. What do such beliefs include?
The Watchtower, March 15th, 1986, Pages 12-15:
Have No Dealings With Apostates [...] When a fellow human tells us, ‘Do not read this’ or, ‘Do not listen to that,’ we may be tempted to ignore his advice. But remember, in this case Jehovah is the One who tells us in his Word what to do. And what does he say about apostates? “Avoid them” (Romans 16:17, 18); “quit mixing in company with” them (1 Corinthians 5:11); and “never receive [them] into your homes or say a greeting to [them]” (2 John 9, 10). These are emphatic words, clear directions. If, out of curiosity, we were to read the literature of a known apostate, would that not be the same as inviting this enemy of true worship right into our home to sit down with us and relate his apostate ideas? [...] We need not conclude that we have to read a book or a pamphlet that is filled with slander and half-truths in order to refute the false claims and teachings of opposers. [...] Yes, Jehovah ‘teaches us to benefit ourselves.’ He tells us to keep separate from apostates and their teaching, and this for our own protection. It means our life.
BANE said:
If I want to try out a restaurant I don´t go to that anti restaurant website do I? NO...I go to the freaking place and have a meal. If you are really worldly and not an apostate, that is what you are doing. You are going by other´s words about the restaurant instead of ordering the chicken sandwich to try it for yourself.
That may be appropriate for trying out a restaurant, but what about getting involved in a business opportunity which could possibly cost you your entire life's savings? Should we just plunge right ahead into that opportunity and then see what happens?
Or, would it make much more sense, and be much safer, to look up the Better Business Bureau, or Fraud Alert Websites, or Dateline TV Investigations first before losing our life savings on a fraudulent business opportunity?
Even with restaurants and movies, most people read the critics' reviews before going there, or at least get their friends' advice first.
BANE, do you recommend the same advice for ALL OTHER RELIGIONS? Should we go "try out" the Roman Catholic religion first and see for ourselves what it is like? Should we do the same for the Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Islam, Judaism, Freemasonry, Hinduism, or Satan worship?
How many meetings should we attend while we are "trying them out"? How many questions should we ask each religion?
BANE said:
You think too many people are reporting food poisening...How many apostates come here? A hundred? I got 7 million witnesses on my side. NOW who do ya believe?
The Watchtower, December 15th, 1995, Page 28:
some thousands are disfellowshipped from the Christian congregation each year
The Watchtower, April 1st, 1994, Page 16:
each year about 40,000 individuals are disfellowshipped from Jehovah’s organization.
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Straight from the horse's mouth, in the 90's there were 40,000 Witnesses every year who were being disfellowshipped. Possibly due to apostasy or causing divisions.
So, if you calculate that up from 1990 to 2010, then just from those years alone there were 800,000 disfellowshipped Jehovah's Witnesses, and that does not include the ones who "fade" or become "inactive" or who disassociate themselves.
Good Afternoon Undisfellowshipped!..
Good Thread..
I understand the point your trying to make..
We do have JW`s of all kinds reading our board..
However..
If someone is actually behaving like an idiot..Calling them on their behavior is not name calling.
It`s an accurate description ,that can be backed up with a persons own words..
There are other words that do not fall into that category..
"F*ckHead" would be one of them..LOL!!..
Outlaw,
Thank you, I can definitely see your point too.
And I wasn't trying to single you out, and Lord knows I have wanted to call certain JW's several names lol.
