djeggnog,
Thank you again for answering some of the questions I posted in this thread.
I am now getting around to replying to them:
djeggnog's Answer to Question Number 1 (Explaining what an Apostate is):
"An apostate would be someone that has become decidedly alienated from God in that he or she has come to learn what things the Bible teaches. but resists what things he or she has learned by teaching and saying things to others that he or she not only knows to be false, but knows them to be contrary to what the Bible teaches. One does not necessarily need to have submitted to water baptism to behave in an apostate manner."
MY REPLY:
Okay, I think that is a good, solid answer taken from the Scriptures. However, what about all of the people who leave the Jehovah's Witnesses because they SINCERELY believe that the Bible does NOT agree with what the Governing Body is teaching? Should they be considered "Apostates"? These people still have faith in Jehovah, Jesus, and the Ransom Sacrifice, but they cannot in good faith follow the teachings of the Governing Body. Are they "Apostates" too? A 1986 Watchtower Questions From Readers teaches that these individuals would still be considered guilty of "apostasy" and disfellowshipped from the Congregation because they would no longer have "approved association" with Jehovah's Witnesses.
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djeggnog's Answer to Question Number 2 (Why Witnesses would disobey the Watchtower and come here and deal with "Apostates"):
" "Forbid"? No. Watchtower publications admonish Jehovah's Witnesses from socializing with apostates or giving to them the time of day once they should realize that their encounter with them (say, in the door-to-door work) is primarily to play "Stump the Jehovah's Witness" with them, and not due to any interest on their part in the Bible."
MY REPLY:
The March 15th 1986 Watchtower emphatically commands Jehovah's Witnesses: "Have No Dealings with Apostates [...] Jehovah says [...] Avoid them [,..] It means your life."
If that is not "forbidding" or "commanding" Jehovah's Witnesses to have no dealings with Apostates, then I don't know what is!
Plus a different 1986 Watchtower says that if you do not obey and follow EVERY teaching of the Faithful and Discreet Slave Class then you can be disfellowshipped for apostasy. So, then you can be disfellowshipped for NOT following the Watchtower's command to "Have no dealings with apostates."
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djeggnog's Answer to Question Number 3 (Why we should believe that the Governing Body is God's Sole Channel of Communication today):
"Short answer: There has only been one Christian-based religious organization that has more than adequately fulfilled Bible prophecies regarding the worldwide preaching work and the faithful and discreet slave (Matthew 24:14; 24:45-47) for more than 130 years now and that would be the association of Jehovah's Witnesses through its governing body."
MY REPLY:
What is the evidence or proof that the Organization of Jehovah's Witnesses has "adequately fulfilled Bible prophecies for more than 130 years now"? Which Bible prophecies have they fulfilled?
djeggnog said:
"Long answer: You said, "why we should believe...," but I can tell you what I believe based upon the Bible. Well, The Word of God, Jesus Christ, in fulfillment of what Jehovah had told Moses at Deuteronomy 18:18, 19, came as God's prophet, and instructed that there would be prophets that would speak on his behalf and on behalf of Jesus' father (Matthew 10:40, 41), but that men would binding and loosing those things here on earth that heaven had bound or loosed (Matthew 18:18), and so with the holy spirit having been poured out upon those 120 disciples of Jesus Christ on Pentecost came prophets and prophetesses (Acts 2:17, 18).
Eventually, there emerged a governing body of Christians at Jerusalem to which the congregations of God in the first century AD looked in deciding the circumcision issue that had arisen over uncircumcised Gentiles that were becoming Christians., (Acts 15:6-30) It was eventually revealed to the apostle Paul that God was using the congregation to reveal His wisdom (Ephesians 3:10-12)."
MY REPLY:
Does the Bible ever use the words "Governing Body"? Does the Bible ever say that ALL Congregations had to follow and obey what the Jerusalem Congregation taught? What if the Jerusalem Congregation had taught people that they should be circumcised or go back to the Mosaic Law, or to STOP believing in Jesus?
Does the Bible say that the Jerusalem Congregation would interpret and explain ALL Scriptures for ALL Congregations, and that if you did not agree with the Jerusalem Congregation you would then be considered an Apostate?
What did the Apostle Paul say about the Jerusalem Congregation in Galatians Chapters 1 and 2?
djeggnog said:
"The Bible indicates that it would be anointed Christians that would be the ones teaching others and such is the case with respect to Jehovah's Witnesses, which is the only Christian teaching organization in existence today (1 John 2:27), and Jehovah's Witnesses happens to be the only group of Christians upon whom Jesus' prophecy as to what would be occurring during the conclusion of the system of things has found fulfillment. (Matthew 24:3, 9)"
MY REPLY:
All of the Protestant Christian Churches teach that their faithful members are "Anointed" by the Holy Spirit (the same that 1st John 2:27 teaches), so why should we believe that Jehovah's Witnesses' Leaders have a "Special Anointing" from Jehovah?
By saying that Jehovah's Witnesses are the only Organization which is fulfilling Matthew 24:9, are you saying that Jehovah's Witnesses are the ONLY Christian religion to be persecuted for their faith in modern-times?
What about all the other Christians persecuted in Muslim countries, African countries, China, the Soviet Union, and under Hitler's reign of terror?
I recommend looking up some history books and news articles on how many Christians are being persecuted for their faith around the world.
djeggnog said:
"Jehovah's Witnesses can all know which organizational body of Christians is being used today by Jehovah as His channel of communication with respect to Bible prophecy, for, among other things, Jesus had foretold that his chosen ones would be gathered together after having prophesied for 42 months, which prophecies were both fulfilled (Matthew 24:31; Revelation 11:3, 4; see Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7 [the power of the WTS was dashed in 1918 in fulfillment of Daniel 12:7] and Revelation 11:2, 3 [Revelation 13:5])."
MY REPLY:
Is the Watchtower Organization a "Prophet"? What did they "Prophesy" for "42 months"? Can you explain how you know WHEN exactly the "42 months" began, and WHEN exactly it ended?
Can you explain how you know that the Bible Students on 1914-1919 were the "Chosen Ones" spoken of by the Prophet Daniel?
Also, if, according to the Watchtower Society, we have to apply the "Day for a Year" Prophecy Rule to Daniel Chapter 4 (The Great Tree), then why shouldn't we apply the same "Day for a Year" Prophecy Rule to the "42 months" spoken of in Daniel?
djeggnog said:
"It had been foretold that Jehovah and His "messenger of the covenant," Jesus, would begin judgment proceedings with the household of God in 1918, and that Jesus' "faithful and discreet slave," who will have recognize their master's return in 1914, would not only feeding the domestics, but would recognize when the time came for the ingathering of "the great crowd" (Matthew 25:19-23; 1 Peter 4:17; Malachi 3:1, 2; Matthew 24:45-47; 25:31-33; John 10:16)."
MY REPLY:
Where does the Bible say that The Messenger of the Covenant would begin judging the Household of God in 1918?
Where does the Bible say that the Faithful and Discreet Slave would recognize their Master's return in 1914?
Where are those dates mentioned in the Bible?
Where does the Bible say that the "Great Crowd" is a 2nd class of Christians who are NOT Born Again or Anointed and who have an earthly hope?
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djeggnog's Answer to Question Number 4 (Why should we believe that 1914 was prophesied in the Bible):
"Short answer: I can, but you might not be able to follow the explanation I would give because with one question would follow another and another and another since faith is required to understand spiritual matters, and faith comes when one has seriously undertaken a study of the Bible, especially those things that are difficult to comprehend (like why we should believe Daniel’s prophecy regarding to the "seven times" has application to Jesus’ being enthroned as king when the Gentile Times, "the appointed times of the nations" were fulfilled."
MY REPLY:
I have strong faith in Jehovah God, Jesus Christ, the Ransom, and the Inspired Scriptures, however, it is the imperfect men who make up the Governing Body that I do not have faith in. Perhaps you can restore that faith by your answers to my questions?
djeggnog said:
"Now were you to calculate the number of years between 607 BC, which was the year in which Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, began to trample upon the kingdom of Judah (where God’s kingdom had been represented in Jerusalem), and 1914 AD, you would find that 2,520 years will have elapsed, and so, to make a longer sentence longer, if each of Nebuchadnezzar’s seven years of insanity were to be explained as having "a secondary meaning," as you put it, then each "year" or "time" would amount to a 360-day lunar year, and "seven times," 2,520 days, making this the end of a very long sentence."
MY REPLY:
No encyclopedia, no history book, and no archaeology book that I have ever seen have EVER said that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in the year 607 BCE. All of the encyclopedias, history books, and archaeological books that I have ever seen say that it happened in 586/587 BCE.
What evidence or proof do you have that it happened in 607 BCE?
If ALL of the historians and archaeologists are WRONG about 607 BCE, then how do we know that they are right about ANY other date that the Watchtower Society makes use of in their Publications, such as the year that Cyrus rescued the Jews?
I agree that a "time" is a "year" in the Book of Daniel.
djeggnog said:
"Now if each "day" represented a year – and they do – then between 607 BC, when the "Gentile [seven] times" began, and 1 BC, there would be 606 years; between 1 BC to 1 AD, one year; and between 1 AD and 1914 AD, 1,913 years; and when added together (606+1+1913=2520), the Gentile times were to come to an end in the year 1914, which is the year when the trampling upon Jerusalem, that is, the trampling upon God’s kingdom, which kingdom is now situated in heaven, came to an end. We can conclude from this that it was in the 1914 AD that God gave to the one with the legal right to rule – that is, to Jesus, kingdom rulership, which date, 1914, also marks Messiah’s second coming."
MY REPLY:
But first of all, WHY should we START counting when Jerusalem was destroyed? Where does Daniel Chapter 4 say that the prophecy of the Great Tree begins when Jerusalem was destroyed?
Secondly, WHY should we interpret each "day" as being a "year" ONLY IN THIS CHAPTER OF DANIEL?
If the "Day for a Year" is truly a Bible Prophecy Rule, then why shouldn't we apply it to ALL of the prophecies of Daniel? Or ALL of the prophecies in the entire Bible?
Do Jehovah's Witenesses apply the "Day for a Year" Rule to the "42 months", the "1,335 days", or to any other prophecies in the Bible?
Daniel Chapter 4 is about King Nebuchadnezzar (The Great Tree) being "chopped down" (going insane) for 7 LITERAL YEARS. Then being restored as King. That's it. That is the ONLY fulfillment that the Bible speaks of.
Can you show me using the Scriptures what the evidence or proof is that there was ANOTHER fulfillment?
djeggnog said:
"Long answer: You said, "why we should believe...," but what I’m providing here are the reasons that I believe what I do as far as Daniel’s prophecy and 1914 are concerned, and my reasons are wholly upon the Bible. Well, there were those who had been gathered among God’s people in the years, 1918, 1919, 1922, 1925 and 1926, but not all of them remained steadfast in the truth, and so some of them left, but those that came to the 1,335 days were given many reasons for gladness due to their steadfastness when, by the years 1925 and 1926, it became clear to them what things their God had now revealed to them through His spirit, the "spirit of the truth," as to the significance of the years 1914, 1918, 1919 and 1922, becoming a source of gladness, comfort and guidance to all of God’s people both then and now. Many of the things that had occurred during these years underwent fulfillment without anyone, but those who were awake and actually looking for confirmation of the fulfillment of Bible prophecy, so that truths that had been hidden from God's people since the time of Daniel came to be revealed for the very first time to God's people during the last days, just as Daniel had prophesied would occur."
MY REPLY:
What is the evidence that you base your belief on that the Bible Students of 1914-1926 were actually God's "chosen ones"?
djeggnog said:
"At Daniel 12:1, the prophet Daniel wrote about a coming time of distress that would be coming that had not ever occurred since God’s people had become a nation, when those sleeping in death, "in the ground of dust," would awaken from their sleep, and that during this particular time, Michael, the great prince, would stand up "in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people." Similarly, at Matthew 24:21, Jesus predicted such a time would be coming that "[had] not occurred since the world’s beginning, ... nor [would] occur again," referring to a "great tribulation." But at Daniel 12:4, 9, 10, Daniel was told to make secret the words and [to] seal up the book [of his prophecy], for it would be during "the time of the end" that "the true knowledge" of what these things that he had written in his book of prophecy "[would] become abundant," for "the ones having insight [would] understand [the meaning of these things], while "no wicked ones at all [would] understand [what these things about which Daniel had written meant]. Notably, at Daniel 12:12, Daniel declares "happy" those that keep in expectation of understanding these things "and who arrives at the [1,335] days." Now Bible prophecies can only be understood when God decides to reveal them, and when He does reveal them, as Amos 3:7 states, the Sovereign Lord Jehovah only reveals the meaning of what things He has kept confidential to His servants."
MY REPLY:
But how can individuals determine WHOM God has revealed His prophecies to? What evidence is there that the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has revealed His prophecies to the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses?
djeggnog said:
"Two important ingredients in ascertaining the meaning of the things written in the Bible is (1) a measure of God’s spirit, "the spirit of the truth" (John 14:16, 17) for if one doesn’t really know what things the Bible teaches, then one can read and read the Bible without understanding the meaning of what they are, in fact, reading; and (2) assistance from one of God’s servants since God has always communicated through either an angelic messenger or through a human prophet His will. (John 8:27-39; Hebrews 1:1, 2)"
MY REPLY:
The Apostle Paul said that the Beroeans were Noble-Minded because they compared what the Inspired Apostles were teaching to what was taught in the Scriptures. (Acts 17:11-12)
If the Beroeans could NOT understand the Bible unless it was explained to them by one of God's people, then HOW were they able to compare what God's people were teaching to what was found in the Scriptures?
It doesn't make sense. Obviously people can understand the Scriptures by God's Spirit WITHOUT having to have God's "Organization" teach you. Otherwise the Beroeans could NEVER have compared Paul's teachings to their own understanding of the Scriptures.
djeggnog said:
"Moreover, it is based on God’s spirit that God’s people now know the following things as to which the Bible speaks to be true: At Luke 21:24, Jesus indicated that Jerusalem, which city represented the typical kingdom of God through its theocratic rulership on earth, would be trodden down, or "trampled on," by the Gentile nations "until the appointed times of the nations [or "Gentiles"] are fulfilled."
MY REPLY:
Where does the Bible say that Jerusalem in Luke 21:24 represents the "typical kingdom of God through its theocratic rulership on earth"?
Why couldn't Jerusalem in Luke 21:24 simply mean the city of Jerusalem, the actual CITY?
djeggnog said:
"This "trampling" began in 607 BC when God permitted the kingly representative of His theocratic kingdom on earth, King Zedekiah, to be dethroned as king of Jerusalem by another king, Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar, thus interrupting theocratic rulership of the Davidic dynasty of kings as was symbolized by Jerusalem. At Daniel 4:25, God used the prophet Daniel to interpret a dream that God had given to Nebuchadnezzar (about an immerse tree that would be chopped down with its rootstock left in the earth until "seven times" had passed over it), and Daniel revealed to Nebuchadnezzar that he was the tree that would be chopped down until "seven times" had passed over it until he learned that it was only by God's permission that he ruled as king. A year later and in fulfillment of this "tree" dream, Nebuchadnezzar became insane, so for the next seven (7) years, he lost the ability to rule as king, while retaining his throneship despite the fact that he spent those seven years outdoors eating vegetation as if he were a bull, his body always drenched with the dew of the heavens, his hair growing as long as the feathers of eagles and his nails growing as long as the claws of birds claws until he seven years ended and he regained his sanity, which enabling him to be restored to his kingship. Though his own experience, Nebuchadnezzar was forced to learn that the Most High is ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that it is God that grants the authority to rule over mankind to anyone He wishes, and that anyone that walks pridefully in the strength of their might and the dignity of their majesty, He is able to humilate."
MY REPLY:
I wholeheartedly agree that this prophecy was fulfilled in Nebuchadnezzar going insane for 7 years! That is what the Bible teaches.
Now, how do you jump from Nebuchadnezzar being insane for 7 years to Jesus becoming King in 1914? That is the biggest question of all for all Jehovah's Witnesses. Your entire religious organization and its teachings are based on this!
djeggnog said:
"At Ezekiel 21:27, God used the prophet Ezekiel in advance of this trampling of Jerusalem by having Ezekiel inform King Zedekiah that his crown would be lifted from him, and would become no one else's until the coming of the one having the legal right to it, and that it would only be at a time appointed by God that He would again give theocratic rulership to the one with the legal right to rule from God's throne. In the year 607 BC, when Zedekiah was removed from the throne of Jerusalem as king, God's kingdom was from that time forward no longer represented here on the earth. When Daniel revealed the timing for the first coming of Jesus Christ as Messiah the Liberator at Daniel 9:24-27, he also revealed the timing for the Messiah's second coming as well at Daniel 4:15-17, which involved the passing of "seven times." Revelation 12:6, 14, indicates that "a time and times and half a time" -- that is to say, 1 + 2 + 1/2, or 3-1/2 times -- represents a period of 1,260 days, meaning that each "time" would be equal to 360 days based on the 12 lunar months of the Jewish calendar, which average 30 days each."
MY REPLY:
Okay, so a "time" equals a "year" of 360 days. I am following you so far...
djeggnog said:
"Now twice 3-1/2 times or "seven times" would therefore amount to 2,520 days, and a scriptural application of the "day for a year" rule found at Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6 indicate that each of these 2,520 days would be years. Thus, counting from the year 607 BC, the year when Jerusalem was deposed by Nebuchadnezzar, we can see that 607 BC to 1 BC=606 years; 1 BC to 1 AD=1 year; 1 AD to 1914 AD=1,913 years, and when added together (606+1+1913=2520) it is clear that Messiah's second coming would occur in the year 1914 AD."
MY REPLY:
But again, WHY would you apply the "Day for a Year" Rule only in this prophecy and none of the other prophecies in the Bible?
djeggnog said:
"Jesus would have the legal right to rule as king only when "the appointed [seven] times of the nations" were fulfilled (Luke 21:24), which means that Jesus could not being ruling as king until the "seven times" (Daniel 4:25) had to come to an end, so it was that using the Bible, Jehovah's Witnesses had calculated, and were thus able to determine and publish, as far back as in the late 1800s, that Jesus Christ would begin to rule as king in the invisible heavens in the year 1914."
MY REPLY:
Where does the Bible say that Jesus would have the legal right to rule ONLY when the appointed times of the nations were fulfilled? How did Jesus NOT have the legal right already, since He was the Legal and Rightful Heir to King David? Also, after His Death, Resurrection, and Ascension, the New Testament describes Jesus as already being KING and Jesus Himself said "ALL AUTHORITY in Heaven and on Earth HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME."
So, if ALL AUTHORITY had already been given to Jesus in the year 33 CE, then how could MORE authority be given to him in 1914 CE?
Also, are you aware that Charles Taze Russell used the Pyramids in Egypt to help calculate and confirm the year 1914? And are you aware that in the 1800's Russell and his associates were preaching that they were all going to be raptured to Heaven in 1914 and that Armageddon would probably happen right after that?
And in the 1800's Russell and his associates were teaching that Jesus had ALREADY invisibly returned in 1874!
You can look all of this up in the Proclaimers book published by Jehovah's Witnesses in 1993.
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djeggnog's Answer to Question Number 5 (About Two Classes of Christians: One Heavenly and One Earthly):
"You said, "why we should believe...," but I can tell you what I believe based upon the Bible. Your mileage may vary, and that’s ok. Jesus explained to his apostles that they would become kings in that among their duties would be that of "[sitting] on thrones" from where they will be "judging the twelve tribes of Israel," thus signifying that during Judgment Day, that is, in the re-creation during Jesus’ Millennial Reign, they would be appointed to positions of rulership over God’s people. (Matthew 19:28) Jesus also explained that in addition to the "chosen ones" -- those with whom Jesus made provision for them through the new covenant for a place within the kingdom of God, those who would be among those that survive the great tribulation, who Jesus called a "little flock" (Matthew 22:28-30; 24:22; Luke 12:32) -- there would be those that would also survive the great tribulation with them, those who Jesus calls a "great crowd" of his "other sheep," who are not the same as the sheep of the "little flock" fold, but who wear white robes while serving God continually in the earthly realm of God’s spiritual temple (Revelation 7:9, 10, 13, 14)."
MY REPLY:
Where does the Bible say that the "Other Sheep" or the "Great Crowd" will live forever on earth and not in Heaven?
Where does the Bible say that the "Other Sheep" or the "Great Crowd" should not be "born again"?
Where does the Bible say that the "Other Sheep" or the "Great Crowd" are not anointed with Holy Spirit?
Where does the Bible say that the "Other Sheep" or the "Great Crowd" are not in the New Covenant?
Where does the Bible say that the "Other Sheep" or the "Great Crowd" should not partake of the Bread and Wine at the Memorial?
Where does the Bible say that the "Other Sheep" or the "Great Crowd" are not declared righteous in the same way as the anointed, and are not viewed as perfect while on earth as the anointed are?
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djeggnog's Answer to Question Number 6 (Is Jesus the same person as Michael the Chief Angel):
"At Daniel 12:1, the prophet Daniel foretold a time of distress on the earth that had never occurred before on the earth, and it was indicated in his prophecy that during this same time period, the great prince, Michael, would be ‘standing up’ for the Jewish people. This angelic prince, Michael, at Daniel 10:13, is also referred to as "one of the foremost princes." In the Bible, the phrase "stand up," or words to this effect, means that the one that is said to "stand up" commences his rulership as king, and so this prince, Michael, the prophet Daniel says, stands up as king on behalf of God’s people during this time of distress."
MY REPLY:
If Michael is only "one of the foremost princes" then how could he possibly be Jesus? Wouldn't Jesus ALWAYS be THE FOREMOST PRINCE?
The Watchtower Society teaches that there are no other angels that are in the same class as Jesus, no others like Him. The Watchtower teaches that Jesus is the "only One of His kind." So how can there be other "foremost princes" like Him?
djeggnog said:
"At Matthew 24:21, Jesus Christ also predicted that such a time of distress would be coming that "[had] not occurred since the world’s beginning, ... nor [would] occur again," referring to this event as a "great tribulation." Now when reading Matthew 24:21, one can easily conclude that this is just a coincidence and nothing more, but keep in mind that Michael is described as one of the "foremost" princes, which is not to diminish other "foremost" angelic princes, for Gabriel is the only other angelic prince mentioned by name in the Bible and certainly he might be described as "foremost"among God's angelic princes. However, we notice upon reading Jude 9 that Michael is described in this verse as "Michael the archangel," where "arch-" carries the meaning of "foremost-angel" or "chief-angel." Note, too, that Michael is not just described in Jude 9 as an "archangel," but as "the archangel," which would mean that of all of the foremost princes, Michael is the only angelic prince that is an archangel. BTW, I should note here that there is an angel described at Exodus 23:20, 21, as having God's name "within him" and that the name "Michael" does mean "Who is Like God?" At Judges 2:1, 2, note that it is Jehovah's angel there speaking to Joshua, Moses' successor, the words: "I proceeded to bring you up out of Egypt.... But you have not listened to my voice."
MY REPLY:
Even if Michael is the only angel who is an "archangel," how does this prove that he is the same person as Jesus?
Also, why does 1st Thessalonians 4:16 (NWT) say "AN archangel" and not "THE archangel"?
djeggnog said:
"Although this angel is not Jehovah, notice that he speaks to Joshua as if he were Jehovah, which suggests something great about this particular angel's authority to speak for God, an authority, mind you, that no other angel seems to possess. Just compare how at Luke 1:13-19, the angel Gabriel speaks to Zechariah, John the Baptist's father, not "I am here to 'declare the good news' ... [about your barren wife Elizabeth's becoming mother to a son to you, whose name you are to call John] to you," but "I was sent forth to speak with you and declare the good news ... [about your barren wife Elizabeth's becoming mother to a son to you, whose name you are to call John] to you." Also, compare how at Luke 1:26-33, Gabriel says to Mary, not "I am with you," but "Jehovah is with you," not "you have found favor with me," but "you have found favor with God," not "I will give him the throne of David his father," but "Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father." "
MY REPLY:
I agree totally that "The Angel of Jehovah" in the Old Testament is the Pre-Human Jesus Christ. But again, what evidence do we have that shows this Angel to be Michael?
djeggnog said:
"Note now that in Daniel's prophecy at Daniel 7:2-8, Daniel sees a succession of world powers and each "beast" in this prophecy represents a world power that "stands up" and reigns as king, one after the other (as explained in more detail in Daniel chapter 11), until we read at Daniel 7:13, 14, where "someone like a son of man" becomes a king after the reign of the "fourth" ten-horned beast, and this "son of man" is given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him," and unlike the kingdom that preceded his kingdom, "his rulership is an indefinitely lasting [one], ... and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin." So in Daniel's prophecy both this "son of man" (Daniel 7:13, 14) and this foremost angelic prince Michael (Daniel 12:1) become a king. But note that at Ezekiel 21:27, God had told King Zedekiah that after him, the kingdom would become no one else's until the time appointed by God, at which point God would then give theocratic rulership to the one with the legal right to rule from God's throne. In many places in the Bible, Jesus identifies himself as being this "Son of man," for example, while being the Lord of the sabbath, Jesus describes himself as being "the Son of man" at Matthew 12:8, and at Matthew 16:27, Jesus says that "the Son of man" is destined to come, not with God's angels, but "with his angels." "
MY REPLY:
How did you conclude that the "Son of Man" from Daniel chapter 7 was the same as Michael?
djeggnog said:
"Keeping this in mind, it should jump right out at the reader of Revelation 12:7-10, that Michael is the Lord Jesus Christ, for we read there that "Michael and his angels" battled with the one called Devil and Satan, so that Satan was hurled down to the earth with his angels, at which time "the authority of God's Son, or Christ, came to pass. Is Michael not the Christ? But while there are so many things in the Bible that point to Michael as being the alter-ego of the Lord Jesus Christ, one thing that stands out to many is the apostle Paul's description of Jesus as raising those of the first resurrection from the dead "with an archangel's voice." Is Jesus an archangel? Yes, even as Michael is one of the foremost, or chief, princes, and Jesus, the Son of man, and the one to whom rulership, dignity and kingdom is given by God, is the one that descends from heaven "with a commanding call, [and] with an archangel's voice," the only right conclusion that can be drawn is that Jesus is not only an archangel, but is THE archangel, and both he and Michael are, in fact, the same person."
MY REPLY:
In Revelation, God and Jesus have given huge authority to all of their angels to carry out their judgments on the earth and on Satan and his people, so how does Revelation 12:7-10 prove that Jesus is Michael?
Also, in 1st Thessalonians Chapter 4, it says Jesus will be coming with AN archangel's voice AND with GOD'S TRUMPET.
If Jesus has to be an Archangel because He is coming WITH an archangel's voice, then Jesus would also have to be GOD because He is coming WITH God's Trumpet!
I look forward to your response.
Thanks again for participating.
