Logic Gaps

by Paulapollos 23 Replies latest jw friends

  • Paulapollos
    Paulapollos

    Hi

    <!-- @page { size: 21cm 29.7cm; margin: 2cm } P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm } -->

    I thought I would share something I remembered the other day. Hope it sheds a little light for you.

    When you translate publications for the Society, you often become aware of “logic gaps”. In other words, statements that are made in the publications make no sense when compared with the Scriptures that are supposed to support them. This is often because when a person reads a scripture, he engages in a form of eisegesis, adding meaning he has accumulated. However, in translation you often have to make these "implicit" ideas explicit, so the audience in another language can understand them. At that point, the idea is scrutinised, and often shown to be illogical, and lacking support. This is a problem for WT Translators. This is most damaging when it comes to theological paradigms the Society rely on. I'll give you an example.

    In one language I was working on, we started having an argument about how to deal with Matthew 24:45-47. Some wanted to translate it as (back-translation) “Who are the faithful and discreet slave class that will appear in the future, who will provide things(food) to others they are charged with looking after?” I kid you not, this was the type of translation that was seriously considered.

    Of course, I argued against this, stating it was “interpretation” rather than “translation”, was anachronistic, irresponsible, and altogether wrong. In order to prove my point, I had to resort to gathering evidence from various Bibles, WT publications, commentaries, and eventually the Society's Bible Translation Database, which confirmed that it was a singular form, not plural, and that explicit time markers, such as “the future” were frankly wrong. After this, the following translation, which I still did not agree with, but was a compromise, was decided upon. Of course this will sound clumsy in English since it is “back-translated”, but you get the idea -

    “There are people who are under the authority of their Master. One (of them) will be picked by the Master. This person has faith, is loyal to God, and is wise. When other people need things at the right time, like a person who is hungry needs food, this individual will share things with them. Who is this (person)? Who really knows?”

    So we used this compromise. And when we tested it, it was followed by a paragraph which said:

    “So you see, Jesus said that in the future, in 1919, he would choose a group of people who would teach others the truth from the Bible. Who is this – it is JW's who are going to heaven.”

    This provoked an immediate storm of protest from the people who we were testing this on. The various answers given were - “No he didn't.” “No, he said it was a person.” “No, he never said anything about a group of JW's.” And so forth. The funny thing was, the people we were testing this on were long-time JW's.

    So we said, “ah but, in the Hebrew Scriptures, it says one person can be a class.” To which, I kid you not, the general response was one of the following two - “So what?” “What has that got to do with what Jesus said?”

    One perceptive man waited till when he could speak to me alone and said:

    “So you're telling me that the belief I have that Jesus chose a group of Christians, is based on a scripture where he was talking about an individual? So how do I know that the Witnesses have been chosen by God?” I really didn't know what to say to that – this man had spent his whole life as a Witness.

    This was one of the first logic gaps that we came up against – and there were so many more.

    PP

  • zoiks
    zoiks

    Hi Paulapollos,

    Thanks for that insight into the translation process with its many pitfalls. Truly interesting and eye-opening stuff!

  • JediMaster
    JediMaster

    Wow, that was actually pretty interesting. Thanks for sharing. No wonder JW around the earth are so confused.

    Jedi Master

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Narkissos was a translator at French Bethel who worked on, among other things, translating the Aid book into French, and he described just this sort of problem too. There was a thread in which he described his translating experiences in detail, but I have been unable to find it, tho I have found this interesting post:

    I tried to find it and can't (it was not a thread of mine). It was a detail actually -- a commentary of Galatians 4 about the allegory of Sarah and Hagar, which the text interprets as covenants; the article flatly opposed what the text plainly said (arguing that those women did not mean covenants but organisations) without ever quoting the sentence it formally contradicted (even to explain it away). To me it was a mistake, the author had simply overlooked the passage which ruined his argument. So (as we were working on a draft for simultaneous publication) I suggested we should ask about it before the article was published in English. The brother in charge of the translation dept. agreed and transmitted my request to the Branch Committee. But what I had not noticed (because I never really cared for that) were the initials of the author: FWF (Frederick W. Franz). This was not lost on the Branch Committee. They literally panicked at the idea of questioning a Freddy Franz paper. So Leonard came to my office and explained to me in a highly convoluted way that it was better not to ask, just keep the translation vague enough... (which of course did not solve the problem!). A couple of weeks later I was discharged from translating the Watchtower... :)

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/176069/2/Andersonsinfo-question-Who-wrote-them

  • tec
    tec

    Thanks Paulapollus.

    I had wondered how they got everything translated so smoothly from language to language - because it just doesn't seen to work that way.

    Tammy

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    In one language I was working on, we started having an argument about how to deal with Matthew 24:45-47. Some wanted to translate it as (back-translation) “Who are the faithful and discreet slave class that will appear in the future, who will provide things(food) to others they are charged with looking after?” I kid you not, this was the type of translation that was seriously considered.

    Wow, what an interesting example of interpretation in translation. It's almost hilarious. I often wonder about these secondary translations that are rendered from the English NWT and not from the original languages; it seems like these may involve an extended game of telephone (Chinese whispers).

    the Society's Bible Translation Database, which confirmed that it was a singular form, not plural, and that explicit time markers, such as “the future” were frankly wrong.

    I never heard of the BTD; please describe it, it sounds interesting.

  • Paulapollos
    Paulapollos

    Leolaia,

    I will do that for you in a while, later this evening - it needs a bit more length and time than I currently have to explain it properly, but I absolutely will.

    Just one more example of the strange goings on in Translation - during one session this situation came up, which has always had me scratching my head. On page 85 of the Bible Teach Book, it states: "For how long? During the 19th Century, sincere Bible students calculated that the waiting period would end in 1914." The translation of this that was neccessary in the language I was working in at the time was the following: "During the 19th C, the Bible students calculated that God's Government would begin it's rule in 1914." This was in line with all the translation guidance, especially concerning implicit and explicit information.

    However, this was flatly contradicted by the next sentence in the paragraph - "(Regarding this date, see the Appendix, pages 215-218.)" This appendix says: "Decades in advance, Bible students proclaimed that there would be significant developments in 1914."This contradiction caused 2 issues.

    1 - We knew we were giving unsuspecting readers of the paragraph the false belief that the organisation had predicted, during the 19th Century, that in 1914, God's Kingdom would begin ruling. Interestingly, every single person I was working with knew this was not true.

    2 - Any readers of the appendix would find out that we had then changed our tune and simply said we had pointed 1914 out as a year of "significant developments." This would then give readers the impression we were playing fast and loose with words. Any person who did research would find out later we had not pointed to 1914 in the way we said at all - and then our credibility would be on the line.

    So we sent one of the many numerous translation questions to Brooklyn, explaining our "deep unease" at this situation (yes, that was the phrase I used), and asking to simply say in the paragraph that "in the 19th Century, Bible students had identified 1914 as a significant year. Later they realised this was the time God's Kingdom would begin it's rule."

    The answer from Mount Brooklyn, that we were directed to follow?

    "During the 19th century, sincere Bible Students calculated that God's Kingdom would begin it's rule in....1914."

    Our concerns about honesty were just....well, the answer says it all really.

    PP

  • AndersonsInfo
    AndersonsInfo

    PP,

    You have a PM

  • Terry
    Terry

    The problem is an historical one and not merely a local one!!

    The fact of the matter is that EVERY translator who ever embarked upon translating scripture was confronted by PERSONAL pre-existing templates for what the CORRECT interpretation............should.....be!

    The Bible, as we know it, is layer upon layer of these personal impositions. Historical layers of interference. Historical layers of push/pull/change/tamper/error.

    When we say "error" in regard to translation we can't say it without KNOWING what is right in the first place, you see.

    Correcting "error" means you must know something before you sit down and "correct" it.

    Where would such knowledge come from except one's own training in one's own denomination??

    There IS NO BIBLE free of onion layers of tampering.

    So, having said that.......where does LOGIC enter the picture and leave?

    We, the "Believer" have a story in our head we have accepted over the duration of our life. We made adjustments as we went along.

    Confronted with any document that doesn't fit----what are we to do? Change our own world view or make the document come out...um..."right"?

    Look at all the TRANSLATIONS on the shelf at the bookstore!!

    Why so many?

    Each DIFFERENT Translation represent another effort to make a particular view "come out right."

  • Paulapollos
    Paulapollos

    AndersonsInfo,

    I've PM'ed you back

    PP

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit