Have your JW Relatives Explained about Generation/Overlap Change to You ? (page 17)

flipper

DJEGGNOG- I just explained to you what this " field service time " is. The " time " is what you write to us on the board. Am I clear ? Every one of Jehovah's Witnesses turns it in at the end of the month. Obviously- you are not being honest in your claim to be a witness- or you would know what " field service time " is. Actually discussing points with you is a waste of time. Maybe you are the EGGMAN the Beatles talked about in their song " I Am the Walrus ". Who knows WHO you are ? One things for sure- you are forfeit. Good night- have better things to do tonight than debate with a closed minded person

djeggnog

@flipper:

I just explained to you what this " field service time " is.... Am I clear ?

It is clear that you aren't comprehending what it is I've been saying to you here. But that's ok. I believe I know what the problem is here.

I've decided not to post any comment to the rest of your post, but I need to ask you a follow-up question based on something you stated in a previous post:

Jehovah's Witnesses are not God's organization led by [Holy] spirit . It's a magazine printing company taking advantage of people's false hopes.

Now I understand that you don't believe Jehovah's Witnesses are being led by holy spirit, but with respect to what Jesus' meant at Matthew 24:34 by "this generation," are you saying that this latest adjustment regarding the meaning of "this generation" is proof that Jehovah's Witnesses are not guided by holy spirit or do you mean something else?

@djeggnog

The Finger

Djeggnog

"At Matthew 24:23-26, Jesus was telling his disciples about visible Messiahs, about "false Christs" that would rise up so as to mislead the chosen ones:"

"Your question here cannot have anything at all to do with Jesus' warning his disciples in the first century AD about the emergence of "false Christs," especially considering that Jesus said these things would occur before the "great tribulation" that occurred in 70 AD as made clear at the very beginning of Matthew 24:29:"

In verse 26, It sounds to me that he is saying the "false Christ , false Prophet" is not visible to them as he says "do not go out" I'm assuming this to mean to the wilderness and they should not go out to see as he then goes on to say that his presence would be like lightening something which is very visible and clearly links this scripture to the presence.

These ideas and teachings of CT Russell and others that you distance yourself from are the reason and basis for your preaching and message of 1914 and the generation. A basis that as one can see how easy it was for Russell to be wrong when it comes to an invisible presence of Christ likewise today with the ever extending generation it would cause one to question the invisible presence especially as the WT has claimed millions have seen the sign of Matthew 24:30 only to realise again, they haven't.

If you, as you claim are a JW do you think the WT is open and honest about it's history, if you teach others and yet did not know what Russell taught?

Essan

Bump so Djeggnog gets a chance to see and comment on the evidence that Russell did explicitly predict many things for 1914, something he claims did not occur.

Here is just one example:

"True, it is expecting great things to claim, as we do, that within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved. In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished at the end of A. D. 1914. Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the "battle of the great day of God Almighty" (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God's Word." Studies In the Scriptures Series II - The Time Is At Hand (1889) pp.99, 101

More quotes here:

http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/failed-1914-predictions.php

flipper

" Ob La Di, Ob La Da life goes on bra , generations never end , Ob La Di, Ob La Da life goes on bra , generations never end " . ( Should be a new song in the JW songbook. Oh wait, Beatles already wrote it ! ) Don't want WT society getting sued do we ? Peace out, Mr. Flipper

djeggnog

@The Finger wrote:

However it seems to me from reading Matt. 24. that Christ warned there would be those that said he was here when he wasn't. CT Russell seemed to be one who claimed that. It seems F Franz claimed he had seen the "sign of the son of man" when he hadn't. What am I to think?

@djeggnog wrote:

At Matthew 24:23-26, Jesus was telling his disciples about visible Messiahs, about "false Christs" that would rise up so as to mislead the chosen ones:

"Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. Look! I have forewarned you. Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it."
Your question here cannot have anything at all to do with Jesus' warning his disciples in the first century AD about the emergence of "false Christs," especially considering that Jesus said these things would occur before the "great tribulation" that occurred in 70 AD as made clear at the very beginning of Matthew 24:29:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened...."
The point is that Russell made no such claim at all....

@The Finger wrote:

In verse 26, It sounds to me that he is saying the "false Christ , false Prophet" is not visible to them as he says "do not go out" I'm assuming this to mean to the wilderness and they should not go out to see as he then goes on to say that his presence would be like [lightning] something which is very visible and clearly links this scripture to the presence.

You are making no sense to me here; you don't seem at all to be familiar with the meaning of Jesus' prophecy as to his presence during the "conclusion of the system of things" in which we are now living. In referring to Matthew 24:26, you are guessing as to what Jesus was saying in this portion of his prophecy about "lightning."

These ideas and teachings of CT Russell and others that you distance yourself from are the reason and basis for your preaching and message of 1914 and the generation.

I do not discount the role Russell had in connection with the fulfillment of Bible prophecy, for in many ways he was like John the Baptist, except that Russell prepared the way for that "lightning" about which you were here speculating to "[come] out of eastern parts and [shine] over to western parts" just as Jesus said "the presence of the Son of man [would] be." (Matthew 24:27) Based on the groundwork done by Russell, Jehovah's Witnesses today have brought the light of truth like a flash of lightning to inform folks about the manifestation of the composite sign, which gives evidence of his invisible presence, and to urge them to get out of Babylon before Jesus' second coming, that these folks might flee from the darkness of antitypical Jerusalem (Christendom) during Jesus' presence before the great tribulation begins. (Revelation 18:4, 5; Matthew 24:21)

A basis that as one can see how easy it was for Russell to be wrong when it comes to an invisible presence of Christ likewise today with the ever extending generation it would cause one to question the invisible presence especially as the WT has claimed millions have seen the sign of Matthew 24:30 only to realise again, they haven't.

You said, "the WT," but assuming that you are here referring to what the WTS has claimed regarding "the sign of the Son of man" at Matthew 24:30, I can tell you at least two (2) things concerning this: (1) Pastor Russell was not wrong in his discerning that Christ's presence would be an invisible one, because the beginning of Christ's presence began in the year 1914, and (2) the WTS has never claimed that millions have already seen the "sign" to which Jesus refers at Matthew 24:30, for the "sign of the Son of man" involves the appearance in the skies of celestial phenomena of some sort which indicates Jesus' invisible second "coming" in which Jesus' comes "on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory," which "sign of the Son of man" causes "all the tribes of the earth [to] beat themselves in lamentation."

What this celestial event will be, it will occur "immediately after the tribulation of those days" in 70 AD, meaning that there would be no intervening events that would occur between the "great tribulation" of 70 AD and the climax of the "great tribulation" during Jesus' presence when Babylon the Great ("antitypical Jerusalem") and the war of the great day -- Armageddon -- occurs bringing to an end this system of things. (Matthew 24:29)

If you, as you claim are a JW do you think the WT is open and honest about [its] history, if you teach others and yet did not know what Russell taught?

I've been one of Jehovah's Witnesses for many years, and I'm quite familiar with what things the Bible teaches as well as with many of the things that Pastor Russell taught that required some adjustment, and, since Russell, Rutherford and Knorr, Jehovah's Witnesses have abandoned many former teachings that we found to have been in error, just as Russell had to divest himself of many of the former beliefs he had held in common with Christendom. Keeping in mind that although an imperfect man, Jehovah blessed Russell's effort to uncover the truth and to expose doctrinal errors during his lifetime, which paved the way for Jehovah's Witnesses to do the same in our likewise proclaiming Jesus' presence and the imminent conclusion of this system of things.

If you wish to believe that Jehovah's Witnesses ought to be embracing all of the teachings of Pastor Russell, it's your choice to believe whatever it is you wish, but knowing what I know today about the resurrection, for example, if you were to go back to Zion's Watch Tower, in the issue dated April 15, 1900, the article entitled, "Christ the First to Rise From the Dead" (pp. 2617, 2618), you might then understand why I would have no difficulty helping Russell to appreciate that the restoration of life back to Jairus' 12-year-old daughter by Jesus was nonetheless a resurrection, despite the fact that Jesus knew that the little girl would eventually die again. In this article, Russell argues that what Jesus did was merely awaken the 12-year-old girl from the sleep of death, or 'temporarily suspended life forces' (whatever that means!), for he says that Jesus left the girl "upon the same plane of death on which she had been born." (An excerpt from this article is appended to this post.)

So what Russell had taught, in effect, back in the year 1900, was that what happened to Jesus' friend, Lazarus, didn't really constitute a resurrection either, for Russell would say that Lazarus was merely awakened from the sleep of death, but this idea of his was wrong then and it's wrong now, for such a view only tortures the poor word "resurrection," and I'd have to tell him so.

Evidently, Russell believed that in order for Jesus to be the "firstfruits" of the resurrection, that no one could properly be said to have experienced a resurrection before Jesus, but this is not what "firstfruits" means. Jesus was resurrected in 33 AD as the first human being to have been resurrected to life as an immortal God with an incorruptible body, so while Jesus was the "firstfruits" of such a resurrection, those of Jesus' anointed followers would themselves experience the same resurrection to life as an immortal God with an incorruptible body as he, except their resurrection would not take place until sometime during Jesus' presence. (1 Corinthians 15:20, 23)

Russell knew some of the truth, but Jehovah's Witnesses today know so much more of the truth than did Russell in his day, and there's no question in my mind that he loved God. But Russell's definition of "resurrection" as being lifted "up to the grand heights of perfection of mind and body" and "out of mental, moral and physical degradation," is not exactly how the Bible defines the word, which is why many Jehovah's Witnesses are being trained now how to handle someone with the personality of a Charles Taze Russell because tact will definitely be a requirement when speaking the truth to the resurrected dead with such cocksure personalities during Judgment Day.

Again, I am familiar with many of the things that Pastor Russell taught, but I don't follow Russell nor do I care what he believed in 1900 or until he died in 1916. He was a God-fearing man and I respect the man, but I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, and not Pastor Russell. If Jehovah's Witnesses were to become follower's of men, they would be a cult, but we do not follow men at all, so whether you should read something in the Watchtower magazine or in any of the WTS publications that you believe to be less candid about our history, maybe you're right, but human beings are imperfect, and so if someone were to judge any of us with a focus on our faults, no one could catch a break because we are all imperfect, aren't we? Jehovah's Witnesses are today concentrating on the work that we are now doing worldwide for a witness before the end comes, so we aren't as concerned about perfection right now, for perfection will come for us as well as the resurrected dead during the Millennium Reign of Christ Jesus.

"Christ the First to Rise From the Dead"

Zion's Watch Tower, April 15, 1900

EXCERPT

The selection of the narrative of the awakening of the daughter of Jairus as an Easter lesson was no doubt under the common but mistaken supposition that the miracle performed upon this child was similar to the miracle of our Lord’s resurrection, which Easter Sunday generally celebrates. We will examine the lesson on its own merits, and then see that the Scriptures distinctly and pointedly distinguish between the two miracles-and that the miracle performed upon Jairus’ daughter is nowhere designated a resurrection, nor was it such in fact.... Death would not have been even figuratively called sleep, except for the provision for a resurrection, nor would it have been appropriate had no awakening of the dead been intended.

AWAKENING OF THE DEAD NOT RESURRECTION

The maid awakened to life and consciousness. She did not come back from heaven or from hell, but merely awakened out of the sleep of death, and renewed the experiences of life as before. Such an awakening from sleep--such a restoration of the life forces that had been temporarily suspended, is of the nature of a resurrection, but is not a resurrection. We are to remember that the maiden was not alive before--that perfect life has not been enjoyed by any member of Adam's race since father Adam's fall into disobedience and under the divine sentence of death. As the Apostle declares, "In Adam all die," and again, "Death passed upon all," and this maiden was no exception to the rule. Our Lord, in speaking on the subject, implied that none have life in any sense of the word, except those who accept him, and they only in a reckoned sense by faith. His words were. "Let the dead bury their dead." "He that hath the Son hath life." As the maiden was therefore legally dead, without perfect life, and without the right to it, before she fell asleep, so likewise, when she awakened, in answer to our Lord’s command, she awakened merely to that death condition in which she previously was.

To have resurrected her he would have meant to have lifted her completely out of death in every sense of the word, out of mental, moral and physical degradation, up to the grand heights of perfection of mind and body, as represented in the person of father Adam, and our Lord did nothing of this kind. He merely awakened her, leaving her upon the same plane of death on which she had been born, and had thus far lived for twelve years. The maiden will still have her opportunity of sharing in the general "resurrection by judgments" or restitution during the Millennial age--unless at some subsequent time she accepted the Gospel of the Lord Jesus, and became one of his followers, a member of the church of this Gospel age; in which event she would, if faithful, be accounted worthy of a part in the chief or first resurrection to glory, honor and immortality. But the point we here make is merely that this lesson does not treat of her resurrection, but of her awakening. [Id. at pp. 2617, 2618.]

@flipper:

Perhaps you will recall writing the following to me in one of your previous posts:

You didn't show me the courtesy of answering my questions to you . I answered the ones you asked me ! Now show some fruitages of that holy spirit you're eagerly talking about !

I believe I asked you a question similar to a question that I had previously asked you, but you have yet to reply to it for some reason. Maybe you do not intend to reply to it, and that's fine, but I just thought I would bring to your attention the fact that you have yet to respond to my post.

For your convenience, here's the relevant portion of that post to which you have not posted a definitive reply in which you had stated the following:

Jehovah's Witnesses are not God's organization led by [Holy] spirit . It's a magazine printing company taking advantage of people's false hopes.

Now I understand that you don't believe Jehovah's Witnesses are being led by holy spirit, but with respect to what Jesus' meant at Matthew 24:34 by "this generation," are you saying that this latest adjustment regarding the meaning of "this generation" is proof that Jehovah's Witnesses are not guided by holy spirit or do you mean something else?

@djeggnog

yknot

Gee DJEggnut, still pretending to be a JW?

Really you aren't fooling anyone, they see you for the tool you chose to be.....

I want to like you DJ, but you are so out of touch with reality it is scary...... I have rarely met persons with such a lack of discernment of BASIC WT application!

The Finger

Djeggnog,

Thank you for taking the time to post Russell's views on the resurrection. I didn't mean to give the impression that JW's should be embracing the teachings of Russell however I do believe they should be honest as we all should be as we remember ananias and saphira who were also imperfect.

The Watchtower I believe 1966 I'll just quote page 40

"By means of this visible, composite sign, over a million persons in all parts of the globe today acknowledge that they have been enabled to "see" "the sign of the Son of man" and to recognize its meaning.

Mad Dawg

Eggnog, Russel did not predict an invisible coming of Christ in 1914. You know it and I know it. Right? Presumably, if you and I know it, the WTS knows it today as well. Agree? If the WTS knows that Chuck did not predict the invisible coming of Christ in 1914, why don’t they correct this error among the R&F JW’s?

This matters for two reasons:

· The WTS uses words they put in Chuck’s mouth to give themselves legitamacy.

· If they can’t be trusted to tell the truth on such a basic level, how can we trust them with anything else?

Essan

Mad Dawg, you might also ask DJ, since he is tactically ignoring me, why he claims Russell made no predictions for 1914 when, as the quote and link I posted above shows, and as we all know, Russell made countless predictions for 1914, including the close of Armageddon in the total destruction of all human governments.

Not only does the Society falsely claim Russell predicted the invisible presence for 1914 and not only do they fail to correct this false belief among JW's, as you say, but they also hide what he did actually predict for 1914.

Thus JW's are deceived into thinking that 1914 - probably the greatest failure of multiple predictions in JW history - was actually their greatest success and a supposed proof of their claimed status as "God's Organization".

Have your JW Relatives Explained about Generation/Overlap Change to You ?

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