dssynergy ... don't be holding your breath on that jury
Have your JW Relatives Explained about Generation/Overlap Change to You ?
by flipper 269 Replies latest jw friends
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flipper
My god- what did I start here ? ! The thread that never ends ? Like the generation that never ends ? Well, I guess that makes sense then. Carry on , have fun with it. Perhaps by the year 2050 it will end with 144,000 posts or some such nonsense
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djeggnog
@allelsefails:
Dont mean to [butt] in, however dont you see that [Jesus'] prophecy in the first century was amazing. He said that the end would come within a generation of those who saw him. And it DID! 37 years later! A biblical generation has ALWAYS been 40 years.
(IE ... Moses proclaimed God's judgement on Israel as this generation shall pass away .... 40 years of wandering in the wilderness.)
I don't agree that a biblical generation has always been 40 years. You yourself just pointed out that the generation about which Jesus spoke lasted less than 40 years (37 years I believe you said), but here's where intelligence comes in: Jesus uttered those words to folks that were living at the time, did he not? He also stated in the minor fulfillment of his words that that generation would "by no means pass away" until all those things he foretold occurred, correct? Jesus was 33-1/2 years old at the time he made this statement, was he not? How long was this generation of that sign? It was at least 33 years plus the 37 years that you mentioned, for a total of how many years? You do the math and tell me how long that generation really was that was affected by the "great tribulation" of those days, ok?
(FYI - Annaias and Saphira LIED and were put to death by God even tho [their] sin was not a great one.
I disagree. Ananias and his wife's motives were deceptively wicked in that they had made this pretense of having sold a property that they had owned and of having donated all of the proceeds from the sale to the congregation while knowing that they had retained some of the proceeds of the sale for themselves in order to gain special honor in the congregation, for in what they had schemed in that they were seeking, not God's glory, but the glory of men, they were really playing false to the holy spirit, for the apostle Peter was God's representative on earth, and by lying to Peter, they were lying to the holy spirit, and by their dishonesty in this regard, what they did would have brought about the same judgment of death had they attempted to deceive one of Jehovah's angels since when they are sent here to earth, they speak to us as God's representatives, in God's name, just as Peter spoke in God's name.
It was dishonesty that caused God's disfavor.
To you, dishonesty is not a great sin, but Ananias and Sapphira died for more than dishonesty, but for playing false to the holy spirit. I suppose you missed that part of the account at Acts 5;1-6. Jehovah didn't give them a slap on the wrist, did he? A little leprosy to punish them for telling to little fib, did he? Read the passage at Acts 5:1-6 and I would ask you to pay particular notice to the words at verse three, where Peter tells Ananias that "Satan [had] emboldened [him] to play false to the holy spirit." Grieving the holy spirit is quite serious; it is not a little sin, but a grave one.
Most people I've read have the same problem with JW's Org. They hide their mistakes and blame Jehovah for their changes in "understanding". The real problem is a group of men who are guessing at truth and unwilling to admit they have no divine direction,)
I've never seen that, but, then again, I'm not a cynical individual. Jehovah's Witnesses are not "guess at truth," and the direction we receive is through the pages of the Bible, for holy spirit itself directs our understanding of the Scriptures. The things we read in the Bible are God-breathed, so when we are studying God's word, the holy spirit -- the Holy Scriptures themselves -- is what provides direction to us, for our being led by holy spirit means conforming our lives so that they are in harmony with Bible and if we "keep walking by spirit, [we] will carry out no fleshly desire at all." (Galatians 5:16, 18)
Never has the word Generation been defined the way the JW's define it now. Not in scripture or the English language could a generation be more than 80 years. Stuff to think about.
Well, we know that isn't true, for at Exodus 1:6, the life of Joseph, who lived for a period of time that amounted to 110 years, is referred to there as a "generation," which is 40 years longer than the "generation" about which Jesus first spoke that passed away in 70 AD. If you did the math, you found that that "generation" was at least 70 years in length and Joseph's was 110 years in length.
You're right. You have much to think about.
@The Finger:
I think your bottom line so to speak is that it doesn't really matter what is taught or preached as long as you join in with the "anointed" in preaching whatever they are proclaiming at the time as this is the truth on the day.
The way you describe my position on speaking in agreement "in the same mind and in the line of thought" (1 Corinthians 1:10) with the F&DS can be described in a manner similar to what you have said here, @The Finger. I don't say that expressed by point of view perfectly, but you're close enough. What many folks don't realize is that it is intentional that Jehovah's Witnesses use terminology quite different than is used by other so-called Christian denominations, and our keeping up with and not lagging behind the truth will enable us to communicate scriptural truths and organizational matters in fewer words than it would otherwise take to convey our thoughts.
When dealing with Judas-like individuals, it is expected that they will seek to betray us using what information they have learned while they were in the truth, but without success since Jehovah's Witnesses speak a "pure language" that prevents us from going "to the right" or "to the left" (Zephaniah 3:9; Isaiah 30:21). This pure language of ours serves to help us to distinguish a faithful "Israelite" from a rebellious "Ephraimite" (that is, a false brother or a false sister) that either doesn't attend or doesn't listen to the meetings so that he or she knows his or her left hand from his or her right hand. Such Ephraimites fail the "Sibboleth/Shibboleth" test since they tend to think and reason in terms of our past and beliefs that we once held, but have abandoned, and so they say "Sibboleth" instead of "Shibboleth." (Judges 12:5, 6)
So how do you identify the anointed?
As Paul stated about the anointed: "We have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way." Also, "the spirit itself bears witness with [their] spirit that [they] are ... joint heirs with Christ." (Hebrews 10:19, 20; Romans 8:16, 17) Why do you feel you need to identify the anointed when they identify themselves every year at the Memorial of Christ's death as those that are in the New Covenant inaugurated by the Lord Jesus Christ.
So, really, why the distrust? If someone should partake unworthily, that is not our business. "Whoever eats the loaf or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord.... For he that eats and drinks eats and drinks judgment against himself if he does not discern the body." (1 Corinthians 11:27-29)
Because they preach the 2nd coming as invisible and that we are in it?
No, they don't. The anointed preach what all Jehovah's Witnesses preach as to Jesus' second coming being visible, where everyone on earth will see "the sign of the Son of man ... in heaven." (Matthew 24:30) It is Jesus' presence that began in 1914 that is invisible, which is why Jesus gave to his followers a composite sign that would be visible to us so that we might discern when his presence and the conclusion of the system of things had begun. (Matthew 24:3)
If i disagree with you on the presence of Christ and will not preach it will I be saved?
I don't know. I do know that the Bible says that Christians "should all speak in agreement." (1 Corinthians 1:10)
Russell wanted the churches of his day to join him in preaching Christ invisible return in 187something. What if you refused to join him? Couldn't agree with that rubbish. How about the (lol) picture in the proclaimers book of the hut with the millions now living will never die, What if you walked past and said "Tripe" and continued to believe that Christ died for you?
I don't know. I do know in hindsight though that if you had lived in Russell's day through Rutherford's day until Knorr's day, you would have been exposed to many adjustments and had you kept abreast of these adjustments you would likely believe what Jehovah's Witnesses believe today as to Jesus' return or presence being invisible to human eyes for the only thing that will be visible to human eyes will be Jesus' coming at Armageddon, for then "all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, [as] they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:30) Let me be clear here: Jesus' presence is not the same as Jesus' coming; these are two different events.
I don't need you to answer. I was a strong JW for over 30 years. But you should think about what has been preached in God's name.
But you do! You are no different than most of Jehovah's Witnesses with whom I study and give counsel. I'm here to listen and I'm going to help those that do not wish to lose their lives and want to be helped so that they may be among the survivors of Armageddon. I'm here to help people, Witnesses or non-Witnesses that want help. Depending upon your health situation and you age, I see no reason why you cannot be among those millions now living that will never die. Absolutely none!
@dysynergy:
on my visit to Bethel last week, someone who has regular contact with the GB explained it to me and stated that the FDS was being careful not to be date setters, because that get's them into trouble. But that there was a need to clarify the meaning of "generation" and that it referred to a group of people who shared an experience and that it did NOT infer an unending period of time.
Indeed! That was the purpose of the article, "Holy Spirit's Role in the Outworking of Jehovah's Purpose," which stated, in pertinent part, the following:
[Jesus] evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end. [w10 4/15, p. 10, ¶14]
There is but one generation of the sign with the anointed that saw the beginning of this sign and the anointed that will not pass away when the great tribulation comes toward the end of the sign. There is no reason for anyone to be attempting to force two [generations] into becoming a single generation since Jesus specifically spoke of "this generation," which is not two generations, but only one.
The only significant change here between the viewpoint of Jehovah's Witnesses back in 1952 Question from Readers [w52 9/1, pp. 542, 543] and the viewpoint of Jehovah's Witnesses today is that we have come to realize in 2010 that the "generation" to which Jesus referred at Matthew 24:34 referred to the period of time that spanned the length of the sign of Christ's presence, which generation began in 1914 and will eventually come to an end, during which generation the lives of Jesus' anointed brothers as a group overlap.
@letsslatejws:
The Faithful & discreet Slave are there to provide food at the proper time...
And they are doing the work that no other group of persons on earth are doing, an ingathering work that needs to be done before the end of this system of things comes.
They havent & instead they have dished up Dog food in that they have continually had to change the very core teachings of the WBTS organisation.
I hear you, but here's what you do: Join one of Christendom's churches, if you haven't already done so, and wait and see what happens while you wait for progressive teachings to be brought forward through your church. You will soon know before the end arrives whether or not Jehovah is blessing your church and whether or not His spirit is there. They may or may not mention his name although you should know that Jehovah is the true God (Jeremiah 10:10), but many churches do marginalize Jehovah and exalt and praise and glorify God's son, Jesus Christ, except when Jesus comes, he will arrive, not just in his own glory, but in "that of the Father and of the holy angels. (Luke 9:26)
Of course, by then, the proverbial door of the ark will already have been shut by Jehovah, but you will be one of those 'beating themselves in lamentation' over your stubbornness and impatience with Jehovah. As the apostle Peter stated at 2 Peter 3:9: "Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." The only consolation for you is that you will then know that about which you are in doubt today, namely, that Jehovah is the true God and that when He said in His word at 1 Thessalonians 1:7-9, that His Son would 'bring vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news,' He kept His promise, and, as I patiently await the fulfillment of all of God's promises, Jehovah knows me well, and He knows that I'm personally holding Him to it, for He is may not be your God, but He certain is my God!
Prophesy after Prophesy has been written about in the WT and each time what has been written has failed to come true.
I've never seen any prophesy written or authored by the WTS in any magazine, tract, book, booklet or other publication. Bible prophesies are all authored by Jehovah God and it is only these predictions that Jehovah's Witnesses care anything about. If as the result of anticipatory anxiety on the part of one or more of Jehovah's Witnesses a rumor should start that spreads like wildfire (e.g., 1975), this does not mean that this was one of Jehovah's prophesies that had either failed or was unfulfilled, for Jehovah's prophesies never fail. Keep this in mind whenever you can take stock of this nonsense about "prophesies" written by the WTS: Jehovah's Witnesses do not author prophesies; Jehovah does, and if you are foolish enough to believe such "hype" when you know full well that Jesus clearly stated that no one knows the "day and hour" when the end will come (Matthew 24:36), then that foolishness would be all on you, would it not?
Each time this happens the WBTS suddenly states we have got new light and changes everything all over again! If we were in the very last days (as we are so meant to be), then dont you think that Jehovah would have made sure that the WBTS had got the very core teachings right ????
No, I don't. Jehovah does things in His own time, so what things are taking place in His organization are evidently not such a big deal to Jehovah, for He not just interested in your concerns and mine, but He's interested in the message about the kingdom that He has put into the capable hands of His son being spread by us to as many people as humanly possible before He pulls the plug on this old system of things. Jehovah's servants have made many mistakes over the years, and I'm not just talking about Jehovah's Witnesses or their predecessors like Russell, but Moses made mistakes, David made mistakes, Solomon made mistakes, but Jehovah managed to use these men to accomplish His will despite their inherited imperfections. Don't worry about Jehovah; let Jehovah worry about Jehovah. You worry about where you are going to hide from Jesus' executional forces when they come at Armageddon if it should turn out that you are still bitching and moaning about failed prophecies that the WTS never made!
The King of the North? JW's had so much interest in this but now its never mentioned in the WT....
So what? I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses and if you should have any questions at all about the kings of the north or south, start a new thread, hit me with a PM and I'll join it. There's presently nothing really new to discuss about the kings of the north and the king of the south, but released in 2006 was Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy!, and I suppose, if you wanted to do so, you could go back as far as the "Your Will Be Done on Earth" book, first released in 1958, for both of these WTS publications contain excellent information in them regarding this subject you mention. Frankly, I do not understand why you are griping about this. Maybe if I had a bit more information as to what the real problem you are having is, I could maybe help you toward resolution.
What about whenever they are crying True peace and Security - The international cry of Peace & Security was in 1986 ... Again no WT comments just continued speculation...
No, it wasn't; you're mistaken. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the announcement of peace and security is a reference to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in the Middle East, or that the announcement will not be made until the conflict has been resolved, so that many Jehovah's Witnesses are following closely the discussions currently underway regarding the Obama Administration, the Palestinian Authority (currently in a vaccum without Hamas' involvement in the talks) and Israel, for when Hamas is invited to the Oval Office, that event will definitely be given global coverage, for peace and security in the Middle East could obtain thereafter. Not true peace and security, mind you, but that of the world's peace and security, at which time the expectation is that the end will likely come after such an announcement has been made.
The 1914 Article that stated Millions Living Will Never Die.... It should have read Millions Living Now Will All Die...
Ok.
All of the failed prophesies that the WBTS have made, makes them clearly the False Prophet. Blind Leading the Blind. Jesus Warned against these. Unfortunately you sit there week after week and have become brainwashed by WBTS teachings. Jesus said that many would say lord lord did we not prophesy in your name, and Jesus would say get away from me you workers of lawlessness.
You are repeating yourself here, and, yes, Jesus, did say exactly what you say he said, but Jehovah's Witnesses are not the "workers of lawlessness" to whom he was referring at Matthew 7:22, 23.
Since everyone in the KH sits there like nodding dogs you have no ability left to question what you hear. You accept it as Fact !!!! In fact if you were [to query] / question [anything] then you would immediately be called apostate. They would belittle you inferring that you are a babe who hasnt gotten off the milk onto the solid food because you are questioning the elementary things!!!
As I read your post, I don't think you are ready for solid food, but that's my preliminary opinion. I could be wrong, but I'm not often wrong about people. You are a murmurer and there is no future for murmurers any more so than Dathan and Abiram had a future when they thought more of themselves than it was necessary for them to think and received divine judgment for grumbling about the human leader (Moses) that God had assigned to be such over Israel.
You need to sit up and become a true [Berean] and research and question everything. To start with use all the Old WT articles, that way you wont think you are being hood winked by Satan ! Unfortunately the WBTS doesnt want you to do this because if you did you would actually wake up and find out the real Truth....
That's just nonsense. If you want to study and do research on any topic of your choice, you are free to do so. I'm listening to you now and I'm not an elder in your local congregation, so why don't you try talking to me. I don't know your name, but I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, so if you are serious, then ask me those questions and I'll answer them.
I pray one day that you wake up and realise that you are in a CULT.
I'm not in a cult, but your prayers don't matter since prayers are a form of worship, and any worship not based on truth doesn't go to Jehovah, but goes to Satan, and so I don't need you to pray for me. The prayers of the wicked are detestable to Jehovah and He has no desire at all to hear them. (Proverbs 28:9)
By the Way I care for nothing that my [grammar] is wrong. Nor care that what Ive written is incorrectly punctuated. All I care about is that the content of what I have written is listened to and not brushed under the carpet, and filed in the bin.
Believe me: I listened to you and will listen to you further should that be your desire. I don't judge you on your grammar; I write for a living so my use of English grammar should be noticeably better than those that have no reason to be concerned about such things, but grammar and punctuation aside, I believe I understood your every word. I trust despite any typos you may find in this post that you understood all that I have been saying to you here.
I lost 21 years to JW's / WTBS, my husband 43 years. I truly hope you wake up soon and realise that you have been lied to year in year out.
I am awake, but the question is, why aren't you? (Mark 13:33; Luke 21:36)
Love to you & big hugs because your going to need it..... xxx
Thanks. I believe I'm going to need love, big hugs and my God, Jehovah, to get me through. Jehovah knows that I depend heavily upon Him.
@djeggnog
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The Finger
Djeggnog,
Without rummaging thru publications etc. and working from memory which isn't that good this is how I understood Christ's presence as a Witness before the change in 1993/4
The Matthew account shows it as a three part question one part being "... what will be the sign of your presence..." The word "sign" I believe came from the word "semion" or some such greek word and that would be "nes" in the Hebrew (which I think I'm right in saying that some think Matthew may have been written in first.) This word, means upright pole ect. and includes a gathering aspect. The standard that was raised by armies etc. effectively.
An example of this is the following from the Cambridge encyclopedia under Stuart with regard to the last Jacobite rebellion " He landed with seven followers at Eriskay in the Hebrides (July 1745) and raised his fathers standard (sign) The clans men flocked to him, Edinburgh surrendered and he kept court at Holyrood")
This part of Matthew 24:3 was applied to Matthew 24:30. and you can see why. When the "sign of the Son of Man" appears there is a gathering. The "sign" in the 1966 WT showed it to be Christ coming in before God as in Daniel as this tied in with the portion of the verse "See the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with great power and glory"
The composite sign was not the sign of either verse 3 or verse 30 but rather a visible result of sign of the son of man. Christ having recieved power was the birth of his kingly rule and people were "gathered" to it by submiting to his rule and putting the Kingdom first. You could be gathered to this sign whereas you cannot be gathered to the composite sign and so it is not the sign of Christ's presence. If you do not have the sign, you do not have the presence.
The other word presence, parousia, I believe meant not just a coming but a visit by a King. To have any visit you have to come or arrive first. So if we have an invisible parousia he must have come or arrived and therefore as we now have it the verses Matthew 24:30-31 are not the 2nd coming but a 3rd.
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Essan
Djeggnog was asked: " If the WTS knows that Chuck did not predict the invisible coming of Christ in 1914, why don’t they correct this error among the R&F JW’s?"
DJ responded: "Can you post here a citation from any of the WTS' publications that specifically indicate that Russell predicted "the invisible coming of Christ in 1914"? I'm not sure I've ever read anything that even comes close to such a statement."
Here is the proof you asked for regarding the Society's false claims about what Russell taught and the Bible Students preached:
"The Watchtower has consistently presented evidence that Jesus' presence in heavenly Kingdom power began in 1914. " Watchtower 1993 January 15 pp.5,9
LIE. The Watchtower presented evidence, as fact, that this presence began in 1874 for over 40 years. That is not 'consistency'.
"". . . a prophecy providentially caused sincere 19th-century Bible students to be in expectation. By linking the "seven times" of Daniel 4:25 with "the times of the Gentiles," they anticipated that Christ would receive Kingdom power in 1914." - "Waiting in Eager Expectation' Watchtower September 15, 1998.
LIE, they taught that Jesus became king in 1874. They predicted the conclusion of Armageddon for 1914
""Why, then, do the nations not realize and accept the approach of this climax of judgment? It is because they have not heeded the world wide advertising of Christ's return and his second Presence . Since long before World War I Jehovah's witnesses pointed to 1914 as the time for this great event to occur." Watchtower 1954 June 15 p.370
LIE, t hey taught that his second presence began in 1874 and did not finally repeal this teaching until 1943.
" For over thirty years before that date and for half a century since, Jehovah's witnesses have p ointed to the year 1914 as the time for the end of "the appointed times of the nations" and the time in which Christ would begin his Kingdom rule . (Luke 21:24)" Watchtower 1966 February 15 p.103.
LIE. And there are many more examples. But these few should establish the facts.
Remember DJ, you acknowledged that the Society knows the truth, so why do they actively teach outright lies? Will you ignore the facts presented here too?
You were given links to such information that would have answered this question and many others so that you could educate yourself about the history of your organization, but you consistently refuse to do the research . You also continue to make false claims - such as that Russell made no predictions for 1914 - and then totally ignore the quotes showing that he predicted many things which failed. Why do you ignore the evidence and why don't you correct your false claims when they are categorically proven false? Why won't you do the research yourself?
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Ding
The WTS has always ginned up activity and numbers by setting deadlines for Armageddon.
With "generation" being stretched out like this, how will they stoke the "Armageddon-is-just-around-the-corner" hysteria this time?
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wannabefree
Ding ... because at the present, the overlapping generations explanation puts the overlapped generation up there in age too. ie ... those who were anointed before Fred Franz died.
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letsslatejws
You said: He kept His promise, and, as I patiently await the fulfillment of all of God's promises...
I say enjoy your long, long wait, because Armaggedon isnt coming .... You poor deluded human !!! Nothing you have said is well researched. You are just a tape recorded mannequin.
The truth that you were taught, all but 10 years ago is now rubbish, and became unscriptural. Making previous teachings a lie. Jehovah would NEVER associate with anything or anyone perpetrating a lie.... I would go as far as saying that you are in Satans Counterfeit Kingdom which keeps transforming itself into a angel of light.... The very thing that you think you are running from.
Todays present truth is good only for today & the next, but it again will become a lie & an untruth. Truth is Truth and should stand the test of time.... You are wasting your entire life to this organisation. Trouble is, you are cleary sooo sucked in that you havent even once considered that the WBTS could be wrong! You havent even thought to question why sooo many are leaving the organisation to never go back... Including those from bethel..
Keep testing that you are in the REAL truth.... The God most high over all the earth will help you see things clearly, because I know in my heart of hearts the WBTS are not Jehovahs Channel of Communication.
I bid you well.... x
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djeggnog
@Ding, @wannabefree, @The Finger and @letsslatejws:
This is a repost of my previous post, which had too many errors in it to count, which typos have been corrected in this repost. However, replies to each of you have been appended to this post.
@allelsefails:
Dont mean to [butt] in, however dont you see that [Jesus'] prophecy in the first century was amazing. He said that the end would come within a generation of those who saw him. And it DID! 37 years later! A biblical generation has ALWAYS been 40 years.
(IE ... Moses proclaimed God's judgement on Israel as this generation shall pass away .... 40 years of wandering in the wilderness.)
I don't agree that a biblical generation has always been 40 years. You yourself just pointed out that the generation about which Jesus spoke lasted less than 40 years (37 years I believe you said), but here's where intelligence comes in: Jesus uttered those words to folks that were living at the time, did he not? He also stated in the minor fulfillment of his words that that generation would "by no means pass away" until all those things he foretold occurred, correct? Jesus was 33-1/2 years old at the time he made this statement, was he not? How long was this generation of that sign? It was at least 33 years plus the 37 years that you mentioned, for a total of how many years? You do the math and tell me how long that generation really was that was affected by the "great tribulation" of those days, ok?
(FYI - Annaias and Saphira LIED and were put to death by God even tho [their] sin was not a great one.
I disagree. Ananias and his wife's motives were deceptively wicked in that they had made this pretense of having sold a property that they had owned and of having donated all of the proceeds from the sale to the congregation while knowing that they had retained some of the proceeds of the sale for themselves in order to gain special honor in the congregation, for in what they had schemed in that they were seeking, not God's glory, but the glory of men, they were really playing false to the holy spirit, for the apostle Peter was God's representative on earth, and by lying to Peter, they were lying to the holy spirit, and by their dishonesty in this regard, what they did would have brought about the same judgment of death had they attempted to deceive one of Jehovah's angels since when they are sent here to earth, they speak to us as God's representatives, in God's name, just as Peter spoke in God's name.
It was dishonesty that caused God's disfavor.
To you, dishonesty is not a great sin, but Ananias and Sapphira died for more than dishonesty, but for playing false to the holy spirit. I suppose you missed that part of the account at Acts 5;1-6. Jehovah didn't give them a slap on the wrist, did he? A little leprosy to punish them for telling to little fib, did he? Read the passage at Acts 5:1-6 and I would ask you to pay particular notice to the words at verse three, where Peter tells Ananias that "Satan [had] emboldened [him] to play false to the holy spirit." Grieving the holy spirit is quite serious; it is not a little sin, but a grave one.
Most people I've read have the same problem with JW's Org. They hide their mistakes and blame Jehovah for their changes in "understanding". The real problem is a group of men who are guessing at truth and unwilling to admit they have no divine direction,)
I've never seen that, but, then again, I'm not a cynical individual. Jehovah's Witnesses are not "guess at truth," and the direction we receive is through the pages of the Bible, for holy spirit itself directs our understanding of the Scriptures. The things we read in the Bible are God-breathed, so when we are studying God's word, the holy spirit -- the Holy Scriptures themselves -- is what provides direction to us, for our being led by holy spirit means conforming our lives so that they are in harmony with Bible and if we "keep walking by spirit, [we] will carry out no fleshly desire at all." (Galatians 5:16, 18)
Never has the word Generation been defined the way the JW's define it now. Not in scripture or the English language could a generation be more than 80 years. Stuff to think about.
Well, we know that isn't true, for at Exodus 1:6, the life of Joseph, who lived for a period of time that amounted to 110 years, is referred to there as a "generation," which is 40 years longer than the "generation" about which Jesus first spoke that passed away in 70 AD. If you did the math, you found that that "generation" was at least 70 years in length and Joseph's was 110 years in length.
You're right. You have much to think about.
@The Finger:
I think your bottom line so to speak is that it doesn't really matter what is taught or preached as long as you join in with the "anointed" in preaching whatever they are proclaiming at the time as this is the truth on the day.
The way you describe my position on speaking in agreement "in the same mind and in the line of thought" (1 Corinthians 1:10) with the F&DS can be described in a manner similar to what you have said here, @The Finger. I don't say that expressed [my] point of view perfectly, but you're close enough. What many folks don't realize is that it is intentional that Jehovah's Witnesses use terminology quite different than is used by other so-called Christian denominations, and our keeping up with and not lagging behind the truth will enable us to communicate scriptural truths and organizational matters in fewer words than it would otherwise take to convey our thoughts.
When dealing with Judas-like individuals, it is expected that they will seek to betray us using what information they have learned while they were in the truth, but without success since Jehovah's Witnesses speak a "pure language" that prevents us from going "to the right" or "to the left" (Zephaniah 3:9; Isaiah 30:21). This pure language of ours serves to help us to distinguish a faithful "Israelite" from a rebellious "Ephraimite" (that is, a false brother or a false sister) that either doesn't attend or doesn't listen to the meetings so that he or she knows his or her left hand from his or her right hand. Such Ephraimites fail the "Sibboleth/Shibboleth" test since they tend to think and reason in terms of our past and beliefs that we once held, but have abandoned, and so they say "Sibboleth" instead of "Shibboleth." (Judges 12:5, 6)
So how do you identify the anointed?
As Paul stated about the anointed: "We have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way." Also, "the spirit itself bears witness with [their] spirit that [they] are ... joint heirs with Christ." (Hebrews 10:19, 20; Romans 8:16, 17) Why do you feel you need to identify the anointed when they identify themselves every year at the Memorial of Christ's death as those that are in the New Covenant inaugurated by the Lord Jesus Christ.
So, really, why the distrust? If someone should partake unworthily, that is not our business. "Whoever eats the loaf or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord.... For he that eats and drinks eats and drinks judgment against himself if he does not discern the body." (1 Corinthians 11:27-29)
Because they preach the 2nd coming as invisible and that we are in it?
No, they don't. The anointed preach what all Jehovah's Witnesses preach as to Jesus' second coming being visible, where everyone on earth will see "the sign of the Son of man ... in heaven." (Matthew 24:30) It is Jesus' presence that began in 1914 that is invisible, which is why Jesus gave to his followers a composite sign that would be visible to us so that we might discern when his presence and the conclusion of the system of things had begun. (Matthew 24:3)
If i disagree with you on the presence of Christ and will not preach it will I be saved?
I don't know. I do know that the Bible says that Christians "should all speak in agreement." (1 Corinthians 1:10)
Russell wanted the churches of his day to join him in preaching Christ invisible return in 187something. What if you refused to join him? Couldn't agree with that rubbish. How about the (lol) picture in the proclaimers book of the hut with the millions now living will never die, What if you walked past and said "Tripe" and continued to believe that Christ died for you?
I don't know. I do know in hindsight though that if you had lived in Russell's day through Rutherford's day until Knorr's day, you would have been exposed to many adjustments and had you kept abreast of these adjustments you would likely believe what Jehovah's Witnesses believe today as to Jesus' return or presence being invisible to human eyes for the only thing that will be visible to human eyes will be Jesus' coming at Armageddon, for then "all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, [as] they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:30) Let me be clear here: Jesus' presence is not the same as Jesus' coming; these are two different events.
I don't need you to answer. I was a strong JW for over 30 years. But you should think about what has been preached in God's name.
But you do! You are no different than most of Jehovah's Witnesses with whom I study and give counsel. I'm here to listen and I'm going to help those that do not wish to lose their lives and want to be helped so that they may be among the survivors of Armageddon. I'm here to help people, Witnesses or non-Witnesses that want help. Depending upon your health situation and [your] age, I see no reason why you cannot be among those millions now living that will never die. Absolutely none!
@dysynergy:
on my visit to Bethel last week, someone who has regular contact with the GB explained it to me and stated that the FDS was being careful not to be date setters, because that get's them into trouble. But that there was a need to clarify the meaning of "generation" and that it referred to a group of people who shared an experience and that it did NOT infer an unending period of time.
Indeed! That was the purpose of the article, "Holy Spirit's Role in the Outworking of Jehovah's Purpose," which stated, in pertinent part, the following:
[Jesus] evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end. [w10 4/15, p. 10, ¶14]
There is but one generation of the sign with the anointed that saw the beginning of this sign and the anointed that will not pass away when the great tribulation comes toward the end of the sign. There is no reason for anyone to be attempting to force two [generations] into becoming a single generation since Jesus specifically spoke of "this generation," which is not two generations, but only one.
The only significant change here between the viewpoint of Jehovah's Witnesses back in 1952 Question from Readers [w52 9/1, pp. 542, 543] and the viewpoint of Jehovah's Witnesses today is that we have come to realize in 2010 that the "generation" to which Jesus referred at Matthew 24:34 referred to the period of time that spanned the length of the sign of Christ's presence, which generation began in 1914 and will eventually come to an end, during which generation the lives of Jesus' anointed brothers as a group overlap.
@letsslatejws:
The Faithful & discreet Slave are there to provide food at the proper time...
And they are doing the work that no other group of persons on earth are doing, an ingathering work that needs to be done before the end of this system of things comes.
They havent & instead they have dished up Dog food in that they have continually had to change the very core teachings of the WBTS organisation.
I hear you, but here's what you do: Join one of Christendom's churches, if you haven't already done so, and wait and see what happens while you wait for progressive teachings to be brought forward through your church. You will soon know before the end arrives whether or not Jehovah is blessing your church and whether or not His spirit is there. They may or may not mention his name although you should know that Jehovah is the true God (Jeremiah 10:10), but many churches do marginalize Jehovah and exalt and praise and glorify God's son, Jesus Christ, except when Jesus comes, he will arrive, not just in his own glory, but in "that of the Father and of the holy angels. (Luke 9:26)
Of course, by then, the proverbial door of the ark will already have been shut by Jehovah, but you will be one of those 'beating themselves in lamentation' over your stubbornness and impatience with Jehovah. As the apostle Peter stated at 2 Peter 3:9: "Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." The only consolation for you is that you will then know that about which you are in doubt today, namely, that Jehovah is the true God and that when He said in His word at 1 Thessalonians 1:7-9 -- that His Son would 'bring vengeance upon those who do not know God and also upon those who do not obey the good news' -- He kept His promise, and, as I patiently await the fulfillment of all of God's promises, Jehovah knows me well, and He knows that I'm personally holding Him to it, for He [...] may not be your God, but He [is for a certainty] my God!
[Prophecy] after [Prophecy] has been written about in the WT and each time what has been written has failed to come true.
I've never seen any prophecy written or authored by the WTS in any magazine, tract, book, booklet or other publication. Bible prophesies are all authored by Jehovah God and it is only these predictions that Jehovah's Witnesses care anything about. If as the result of anticipatory anxiety on the part of one or more of Jehovah's Witnesses a rumor should start that spreads like wildfire (e.g., 1975), this does not mean that this was one of Jehovah's prophesies that had either failed or was unfulfilled, for Jehovah's prophesies never fail. Keep this in mind whenever you can take stock of this nonsense about "prophesies" written by the WTS: Jehovah's Witnesses do not author prophesies; Jehovah does, and if you are foolish enough to believe such "hype" when you know full well that Jesus clearly stated that no one knows the "day and hour" when the end will come (Matthew 24:36), then that foolishness would be all on you, would it not?
Each time this happens the WBTS suddenly states we have got new light and changes everything all over again! If we were in the very last days (as we are so meant to be), then dont you think that Jehovah would have made sure that the WBTS had got the very core teachings right ????
No, I don't. Jehovah does things in His own time, so what things are taking place in His organization are evidently not such a big deal to Jehovah, for He not just interested in your concerns and mine, but He's interested in the message about the kingdom that He has put into the capable hands of His son being spread by us to as many people as humanly possible before He pulls the plug on this old system of things. Jehovah's servants have made many mistakes over the years, and I'm not just talking about Jehovah's Witnesses or their predecessors like Russell, but Moses made mistakes, David made mistakes, Solomon made mistakes, but Jehovah managed to use these men to accomplish His will despite their inherited imperfections. Don't worry about Jehovah; let Jehovah worry about Jehovah. You worry about where you are going to hide from Jesus' executional forces when they come at Armageddon if it should turn out that you are still bitching and moaning about failed prophecies that the WTS never made!
The King of the North? JW's had so much interest in this but now its never mentioned in the WT....
So what? I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses and if you should have any questions at all about the kings of the north or south, start a new thread, hit me with a PM and I'll join it. There's presently nothing really new to discuss about the kings of the north and the king of the south, but released in 2006 was Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy!, and I suppose, if you wanted to do so, you could go back as far as the "Your Will Be Done on Earth" book, first released in 1958, for both of these WTS publications contain excellent information in them regarding this subject you mention. Frankly, I do not understand why you are griping about this. Maybe if I had a bit more information as to what the real problem you are having is, I could maybe help you toward resolution.
What about whenever they are crying True peace and Security - The international cry of Peace & Security was in 1986 ... Again no WT comments just continued speculation...
No, it wasn't; you're mistaken. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the announcement of peace and security is a reference to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in the Middle East, or that the announcement will not be made until the conflict has been resolved, so that many Jehovah's Witnesses are following closely the discussions currently underway regarding the Obama Administration, the Palestinian Authority (currently in a vaccum without Hamas' involvement in the talks) and Israel, for when Hamas is invited to the Oval Office, that event will definitely be given global coverage, for peace and security in the Middle East could obtain thereafter. Not true peace and security, mind you, but that of the world's peace and security, at which time the expectation is that the end will likely come after such an announcement has been made.
The 1914 Article that stated Millions Living Will Never Die.... It should have read Millions Living Now Will All Die...
Ok.
All of the failed prophesies that the WBTS have made, makes them clearly the False Prophet. Blind Leading the Blind. Jesus Warned against these. Unfortunately you sit there week after week and have become brainwashed by WBTS teachings. Jesus said that many would say lord lord did we not prophesy in your name, and Jesus would say get away from me you workers of lawlessness.
You are repeating yourself here, and, yes, Jesus, did say exactly what you say he said, but Jehovah's Witnesses are not the "workers of lawlessness" to whom he was referring at Matthew 7:22, 23.
Since everyone in the KH sits there like nodding dogs you have no ability left to question what you hear. You accept it as Fact !!!! In fact if you were [to query] / question [anything] then you would immediately be called apostate. They would belittle you inferring that you are a babe who hasnt gotten off the milk onto the solid food because you are questioning the elementary things!!!
As I read your post, I don't think you are ready for solid food, but that's my preliminary opinion. I could be wrong, but I'm not often wrong about people. You are a murmurer and there is no future for murmurers any more so than Dathan and Abiram had a future when they thought more of themselves than it was necessary for them to think and received divine judgment for grumbling about the human leader (Moses) that God had assigned to be such over Israel.
You need to sit up and become a true [Berean] and research and question everything. To start with use all the Old WT articles, that way you wont think you are being hood winked by Satan ! Unfortunately the WBTS doesnt want you to do this because if you did you would actually wake up and find out the real Truth....
That's just nonsense. If you want to study and do research on any topic of your choice, you are free to do so. I'm listening to you now and I'm not an elder in your local congregation, so why don't you try talking to me. I don't know your name, but I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, so if you are serious, then ask me those questions and I'll answer them.
I pray one day that you wake up and realise that you are in a CULT.
I'm not in a cult, but your prayers don't matter since prayers are a form of worship, and any worship not based on truth doesn't go to Jehovah, but goes to Satan, and so I don't need you to pray for me. The prayers of the wicked are detestable to Jehovah and He has no desire at all to hear them. (Proverbs 28:9)
By the Way I care for nothing that my [grammar] is wrong. Nor care that what Ive written is incorrectly punctuated. All I care about is that the content of what I have written is listened to and not brushed under the carpet, and filed in the bin.
Believe me: I listened to you and will listen to you further should that be your desire. I don't judge you on your grammar; I write for a living so my use of English grammar should be noticeably better than those that have no reason to be concerned about such things, but grammar and punctuation aside, I believe I understood your every word. I trust despite any typos you may find in this post that you understood all that I have been saying to you here.
I lost 21 years to JW's / WTBS, my husband 43 years. I truly hope you wake up soon and realise that you have been lied to year in year out.
I am awake, but the question is, why aren't you? (Mark 13:33; Luke 21:36)
Love to you & big hugs because your going to need it..... xxx
Thanks. I believe I'm going to need love, big hugs and my God, Jehovah, to get me through. Jehovah knows that I depend heavily upon Him.
@The Finger:
Without rummaging thru publications etc. and working from memory which isn't that good this is how I understood Christ's presence as a Witness before the change in 1993/4
Ok.
The Matthew account shows it as a three part question one part being "... what will be the sign of your presence..." The word "sign" I believe came from the word "semion" or some such greek word and that would be "nes" in the Hebrew (which I think I'm right in saying that some think Matthew may have been written in first.) This word, means upright pole ect. and includes a gathering aspect. The standard that was raised by armies etc. effectively.
Our word "sign" that translates the Greek word _mohpheth_ (Hebrew _ohth_) used in Matthew's gospel at Matthew 24:3 was used instead of the Hebrew word _ohth_ that Matthew would have used in writing his gospel in Hebrew for the Hebrew-speaking Jews before he went on to write his gospel in the Greek language, the basis upon which Bible translators today have rendered Matthew's gospel into English and into various other languages. If you were saying that Matthew's gospel was the first of the four gospels to have been written, that sounds correct, for his gospel was written in 41 AD, whereas the gospels of Mark, Luke and John were written in 60 AD, 56 AD and 98 AD, respectively.
An example of this is the following from the Cambridge encyclopedia under Stuart with regard to the last Jacobite rebellion " He landed with seven followers at Eriskay in the Hebrides (July 1745) and raised his fathers standard (sign) The clans men flocked to him, Edinburgh surrendered and he kept court at Holyrood")
This part of Matthew 24:3 was applied to Matthew 24:30. and you can see why. When the "sign of the Son of Man" appears there is a gathering. The "sign" in the 1966 WT showed it to be Christ coming in before God as in Daniel as this tied in with the portion of the verse "See the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with great power and glory"
The composite sign was not the sign of either verse 3 or verse 30 but rather a visible result of sign of the son of man. Christ having [received] power was the birth of his kingly rule and people were "gathered" to it by [submitting] to his rule and putting the Kingdom first. You could be gathered to this sign whereas you cannot be gathered to the composite sign and so it is not the sign of Christ's presence. If you do not have the sign, you do not have the presence.
You are making no sense, and I was focusing on the words you were using here in describing "the sign of the Son of man" in trying to make a connection between "the sign of the Son of man" and what Daniel saw in his vision as is recorded at Daniel 7:13, 14, so I decided to research which issue in 1966 did the Watchtower provide this wholly unscriptural viewpoint and I found the article "The Sign of the Sign of Man" [w66 1/15, pp. 37-40]. This is the reason that "you guys," who have left God's organization and are still holding on to these older magazines and books, and rely upon what they say thinking that the information contained in them is static, when later on, in fact, adjustments have been made to some of what these older publications contain.
Consequently, as it turns out, your understanding of these things is incomplete, for you aren't aware and no one at the Kingdom Hall is telling you anything different because you are on your own and are not discussing spiritual matters any longer with anyone there at the Kingdom Hall. In many respect, you are not unlike that Samaritan woman to whom Jesus spoke, who had claimed to be a worshipper of Jehovah, but you may recall that at John 4:20-24, Jesus told the woman that she was worshipping a God that she didn't know, for the god that she worshipped -- the one about whom Moses talked about in the Pentateuch -- did not exist, and because she didn't know the God of the Jews who had revealed so much more of himself in additional 34 books than she had learned about God in just five books. Because her religion was only based on five books of the Bible and no one had told her anything new or different to adjust her beliefs to a new or different understanding about God, her knowledge of God was partial, distorted, incomplete.
As a result, she wasn't able to worship God in spirit and in truth, for what little bit that she did know would have been unacceptable to God, so she was actually worshipping a god that she really didn't know. Now granted, this Samaritan woman may have thought that she was worshiping Jehovah, and we can understand that, and were you to have asked the woman, "Who is your God?" I'm pretty sure that she would have answered "Jehovah is my God," because she did have those five books that Moses wrote, but Jehovah was not her God and Jehovah didn't know her as one of His worshippers.
You see, over time, as we study God's word, Jehovah progressively reveals more and more about Himself through his spirit. How many articles has the WTS published over the years reflecting adjustments, clarifications, changes in our understanding of certain scriptures? Literally thousands have been made and why is that? Why have continued to receive new books and new magazines over the years? Because, Jehovah progressively reveals more and more about Himself though his spirit. We read the Bible, but we don't always get the sense of what we are reading, but as we review what God says in His word, we eventually get there and obtain an understanding of what the holy spirit is saying. Thus, Jesus' whole point to the Samaritan woman there was that she wasn't worshipping Jehovah, but she was worshipping a nonexistent god, for she was not worshipping in accord with truth, so, in effect, that worship went to Satan the Devil, who accepts all worship that is not based on truth,
You are, therefore, only learning for the first time from me how Jehovah's Witnesses view things, how we no longer believe or teach according to how we might have understood those things back in 1966, for God's organization is a forward-moving one, and the WTS publishes, not what our understanding of these things will be years later, because we don't know and cannot predict what adjustments or clarifications will come down the pipe until they do, but what is published is what our then-current understanding at that time is of these things, such as what things we're here discussing now as to "the sign of the Son of man."
The other word presence, parousia, I believe meant not just a coming but a visit by a King. To have any visit you have to come or arrive first. So if we have an invisible parousia he must have come or arrived and therefore as we now have it the verses Matthew 24:30-31 are not the 2nd coming but a 3rd.
This Greek word _parousia_, translated "presence" in our English-language Bibles, means just that -- presence, which refers to "the state of being present." Let me try this: I'm in the room with you. Or, I'm not in the room with you, but my spirit that predominates is in this room and in every other room in this office, for I'm the boss and it's Monday morning and everyone in the office knows I'm coming back this week. They've checked their calendars and they've been discussing my return to the office at the water cooler.
I've only just returned from a three-week vacation, my second vacation this year, because I always take two vacations per year, and when I came back from the one I took earlier this year, you might call that one my first coming, they were expecting me when I returned, and now they are expecting me to return from this vacation from which I'm now returning, my second and last one that I plan to take this year. So, it's a Monday, and everyone is wearing the proper attire for the office that I require of them because, you might say, that they are anticipating my second coming.
Because it's Monday, no one is wearing jeans or sneakers in the office, and every man is wearing a shirt with a tie, and every woman is wearing a dress or a skirt of some kind of a reasonable length. What the folks are permitted to wear to work on Fridays, which is "casual day" around here they are not wearing today, a Monday, because my vacation's over and the dress code for Mondays through Thursdays is back in effect, so everyone coming into the office today knows I'm present, they know that I'm back from vacation, because they see what people are wearing on a Monday, and they know the people here never wear ties if they don't have to do so, and that they would sooner come to work wearing jeans and Nikes than come in wearing shoes with slacks, and heels with a dress, and this will be the way it is tomorrow, too, and on Wednesday and Thursday as well, so I must be back; I'm present.
Look at what these people at the office are now wearing. Look at what these folks are not wearing. Those heels she's wearing is part of the composite sign of my presence. That tie he's wearing is part of the composite sign of my presence. Do you notice any Nikes on anyone's feet on a Monday morning? No you don't. Anyone donning a pair of Calvin Kleins or other unsuitable attire for a Monday morning? No one is. You can discern my presence by discerning it from how these folks are dressed, by what they're wearing. All of these things make up the composite sign of my presence, the indicia, the evidence that I'm back, that I'm present, although I've yet to come into the office. Now I don't take three vacations in any year; it makes no sense to me to do that, so I will never have a third coming from a third vacation, but my second coming this year though is imminent. Everyone in the office is expecting to see me this very week.
Now it's an invisible presence or _parousia_, but I'm here. I am the boss and I can walk in at any time. It's my office and the folks here all work for me, and for this I pay each one of them for their hard work. I can come into the office at any time. I always get to the office just before 9:00 a.m., and I expect everyone else to be there by 9:00 a.m., and they've all seen the calendar, they know I'm due back this week, they know I'll be coming in one day this week, but they don't know what day this week I'm coming, but they are in expectation of my coming. When they see the routine of my secretary leading the parade of people to and from my office in the morning and they hear the sound of Kenny G, Barry Manilow, Rascal Flatts, the Stones and the Godfather of Soul coming from my office in the afternoon, no one is discerning my presence, they know I'm present and that I've returned from my vacation. I'm no longer coming; I'm here. Are you getting this?
Well, there you go. Do you now see the difference between Jesus' presence and his coming?
don't know that's my agreement with everyone and they are there by 9:00 a.m. Whatever you may have read in a 1966 Watchtower having to do with Jesus' invisible presence and his coming was what we understood to be the truth in 1966, but in 2010, it's not the truth; it's wrong and we don't teach that any longer, because to teach what is wrong is to teach falsehood. No, we are 'making sure of all things and only holding onto those things that are fine.' We're not holding on to wrong teachings. We're only retaining right teachings. We're just going to "hold fast to what is fine," like the apostle Paul told us to do at 1 Thessalonians 5:21.
@Ding:
The WTS has always ginned up activity and numbers by setting deadlines for Armageddon. With "generation" being stretched out like this, how will they stoke the "Armageddon-is-just-around-the-corner" hysteria this time?
What do you mean? Jehovah's Witnesses are always "ginned up for activity." You evidently do not realize that we are preparing for life in God's new order, for when Jesus calls the dead from their graves, we all have to be prepared to be able to teach them many things that they will need to know that we ourselves have been taught by Jehovah. In the congregations, we are learning how to put up with the personalities, idiosyncracies and attitudes of our brothers and sisters who might rub us the wrong way, people that we may not normally gravitate toward, but who are, like them, worshippers of the true God, for the resurrected dead will themselves have personalities, idiosyncracies and attitudes that will surely rub us the wrong way the same as our own spiritual brothers and sisters do, so many of us have a real need to learn how to do more than tolerate others. No, "complete lowliness of mind and mildness, with long-suffering, and putting up with one another in love" are necessary traits that we all need to develop, and learning how to be freely forgiving of one another "if anyone has a cause for complaint against another" will fortify us for the teaching others what it means to love one another in the new earth. (Ephesians 4:2; Colossians 3:13)
There are some brothers and sisters on whom we're keeping an eye that seem to be troublemakers, who are always talking about this elder and that one not fitting his or her ideal of an elder, and who always seem to be grumbling about something, saying it's nothing, but clearly it's something when theocratic arrangements are made, but are being undone because this one is this and this other one is that. When people aren't comfortable speaking when certain people are around, that's a problem, and when children are avoiding some in the congregation because they are being made to feel they need permission to say "Hi" to certain ones in the congregation and to their children that's a problem.
There are those, too, who like @Essan here, believe they know the truth, and yet, by the comments they make, it's clear to many that they never seem to be able "to come to an accurate knowledge of truth." (2 Timothy 3:7) They are not reading the Watchtower lesson; instead, they are winging everything giving answers that were right two, three years ago, but wrong today, even in the very Watchtower we're studying, is wrong today. In a recent post in which there was a question about "the invisible coming of Christ in 1914" (?), @The Finger asked me:
If the WTS knows that Chuck did not predict the invisible coming of Christ in 1914, why don’t they correct this error among the R&F JW’s?
To this question, I responded:
Can you post here a citation from any of the WTS' publications that specifically [indicates] that Russell predicted "the invisible coming of Christ in 1914"? I'm not sure I've ever read anything that even comes close to such a statement.
Now @The Finger suggests that there are "two reasons" why the WTS should "correct this error among the R&F JW's" (I know that telling him that there is no such thing as a "rank-and-file" among Jehovah's Witnesses would just fall upon deaf ears!). These two reasons are:
[1] The WTS uses words they put in Chuck’s mouth to give themselves [legitimacy].
[2] If they can’t be trusted to tell the truth on such a basic level, how can we trust them with anything else?
These allegations are essentially opinions -- his -- things that he truly believes to be true when they aren't true at all, so I follow up with the following:
I'd like to read one of these WTS publications wherein it is stated how Russell actually made a prediction as to "the invisible coming of Christ in 1914." Do you have anything like that?
Notice what @Essan tells me "posthumously":
Here is the proof you asked for regarding the Society's false claims about what Russell taught and the Bible Students preached:
"The Watchtower has consistently presented evidence that Jesus' presence in heavenly Kingdom power began in 1914." Watchtower 1993 January 15 pp.5,9
LIE. The Watchtower presented evidence, as fact, that this presence began in 1874 for over 40 years. That is not 'consistency'.
@Essan's 'that's not consistency' remark would be funny if only he didn't seriously think he "proved" anything. Read what he calls "proof" here makes me want to pull out my "Pluto" analogy (I'm starting to like that one), but, instead of an analogy about Pluto, I suppose I could make my point by pointing out how it is that many computer users today seem to have so quickly forgotten that, during the pre-broadband age, computer users were using 300 baud, 2400 baud, 9600 baud and 14,400 baud modems to communicate with other computers users on bulletin boards and on the internet, that is, until the 28,800 and 33,600 and 56,000 kbps modems came along. It was after what I call here, this "pre-broadband age," that we entered the broadband age. No one today would argue that a 14,400 baud modem is superior to a broadband or cable connection to the internet, but back in 1994, it seemed that most everyone wanted a 14,400 baud modem installed in their PC.
Taking a page from @Essan, maybe I should argue that before 1994, computer users consistently wanted 14.4 modems in their PCs, and despite the much faster broadband connections available today (cable, DSL, T1), there's no reason for any computer user to buy into all of this broadband "hype" when everyone knows that the 14.4 modem had consistently been the "cat's meow" pre-broadband! This is analogous to @Essan's entire argument to the effect that the WTS has "consistently" claimed that Russell (as well as "the Bible Students" -- I suppose @Essan thought his mentioning that the Bible Students preached what Russell taught in his argument would serve to strengthen it, although it really didn't, but whatever!) falsely and "consistently" claimed that Jesus' presence in heavenly Kingdom power began in 1914, and he even cites the w93 1/15 pp. 5, 9, and I'm guessing that he was thinking that his providing a citation in his post would actually buttress his argument.
Now I'm not misrepresenting @Essan's argument here, am I? I mean, this is how @Essan sets up his argument, no? So now we get to @Essan's assertion, namely, that the Watchtower lied: @Essan says that the Watchtower presented evidence "as fact." What "evidence" did the Watchtower present "as fact"? What is this "lie" that @Essan here accuses the WTS of making? I asked the following questions:
Can you post here a citation from any of the WTS' publications that specifically [indicates] that Russell predicted "the invisible coming of Christ in 1914"? I'd like to read one of these WTS publications wherein it is stated how Russell actually made a prediction as to "the invisible coming of Christ in 1914." Do you have anything like that?
@Essan makes the following accusation:
"The Watchtower has consistently presented evidence that Jesus' presence in heavenly Kingdom power began in 1914." Watchtower 1993 January 15 pp.5,9
And this is @Essan's conclusion:
LIE. The Watchtower presented evidence, as fact, that this presence began in 1874 for over 40 years. That is not 'consistency'.
Where is this "inconsistency"? I have to wonder whether @Essan knows the difference between the teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses as to Jesus' presence beginning in 1914 and the invisible coming of Christ in 1914. To my knowledge, the Watchtower has never taught that the invisible coming of Christ began in 1914. Never. But Russell did teach that the invisible presence of Christ Jesus began in 1874. When I read this I realized that @Essan doesn't know that there is difference between Jesus' "presence" and Jesus' "coming," that his presence and coming are not the same thing. Jesus' presence occurred in 1914, not in 1874 as Russell stated, and the Watchtower consistency declares 1914 to be the year when Jesus' invisible presence began, but Jesus' coming will not occur until after the "great tribulation" when all of the political kingdoms turn on all religions, including ours, which will be then be followed by "the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels," IOW, it is after the great tribulation that Jesus' coming begins. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)
I've read everything in this thread, but when @Essan goes on to conflate a bad argument that he didn't prove by throwing at it more things he declares to be"lies" into the mix, it's all I can do but wonder why he didn't bother to read what I wrote:
Can you post here a citation from any of the WTS' publications that specifically [indicates] that Russell predicted "the invisible coming of Christ in 1914"? I'd like to read one of these WTS publications wherein it is stated how Russell actually made a prediction as to "the invisible coming of Christ in 1914." Do you have anything like that?
So @Ding, would you interpret the phrase "the invisible coming of Christ in 1914" as if what I had writen was "the invisible presence of Christ in 1914," especially if you knew that Jesus' presence is different than Jesus coming?
At 3 John 9, 10, we read about a man named Diotrephes who liked to have first place in the congregation, was highly critical of apostolic authority and didn't receive any of the brothers hospitably or with respect. @Essan reminds me of Diotrephes when he clearly doesn't understand the words that I have been saying here, words that the WTS have for many years consistently never taught. He certainly doesn't respect me and I don't even know the man!
Just like those 14.4 modems that were all the rage, those of us with high speed connections to the 'net may have consistently sung the praises of modems before 1994, but after 1994, computer users are often found consistently singing another tune, preaching against dial-up connections to the internet (via 14.4 modems or any modem) in favor of broadband, cable and T1 lines. @Essan doesn't want to discuss anything with me really as much as he wants to make me in his image. This changes not the fact the WTS hasn't published what he claims the WTS has consistently published. He's in error and he needs to apologize for making this incredible statement. I'm sure we won't hear one, but @Essan's wrong and he's owes an apology to everyone he's libelled in this regard.
Reading comprehension doesn't seem to me to be @Essan's strong suit, but if his beef is with the local elders that "pink-slipped" him for something and he wants to "murder" the members of the governing body for what he did that led to the elders doing what they did, that would IMO make @Essan a crazy person, especially as he (and many others here) do tend to refer to the "governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses" as the "WTS," except the WTS is merely a publishing company staffed by Jehovah's Witnesses. Go figure.
Did broadband users consistently "lie" before 1994, or was there a revelation made that led to the mass rejection of dial-up modems in favor of the "truth" associated with broadband?
@wannabefree:
Ding ... because at the present, the overlapping generations explanation puts the overlapped generation up there in age too. ie ... those who were anointed before Fred Franz died.
How is that? It's not the generation of people, but the period of time from when the sign began until when it ends that is being discussed by Jesus at Matthew 24:34. It is those of the anointed that live during the period of "this generation"of the sign that "will not pass away"; some will, but some won't pass away before Jesus' and his angels come at Armageddon.
Look, @wannabefree: There is but one generation of the sign with the anointed that saw the beginning of the sign and the anointed that will be around when the great tribulation comes toward the end of the sign. From 1914 when the "generation of the sign" began, these anointed brothers and sisters of the Lord Jesus Christ whose lives have overlapped since the beginning of this sign have all been contemporaries of this sign, for all of them can bear witness to some part of the composite sign.
@djeggnog wrote:
The only consolation for you is that you will then know that about which you are in doubt today, namely, that Jehovah is the true God and that when He said in His word at 1 Thessalonians 1:7-9 -- that His Son would 'bring vengeance upon those who do not know God and also upon those who do not obey the good news' -- He kept His promise, and, as I patiently await the fulfillment of all of God's promises, Jehovah knows me well, and He knows that I'm personally holding Him to it, for He may not be your God, but He is for a certainty my God!
@letsslatejw wrote:
I say enjoy your long, long wait, because Armaggedon isnt coming .... You poor deluded human !!! Nothing you have said is well researched. You are just a tape recorded mannequin.
I think you are a fool to think that Armageddon isn't coming. I believe the Bible provides some very good advice and that it also provides comfort to those that need comfort from someone as trustworthy as Jehovah God, who day and night is as reliable as a rock.
The truth that you were taught, all but 10 years ago is now rubbish, and became unscriptural. Making previous teachings a lie. Jehovah would NEVER associate with anything or anyone perpetrating a lie.... I would go as far as saying that you are in Satans Counterfeit Kingdom which keeps transforming itself into a angel of light.... The very thing that you think you are running from.
I believe Jesus is the truth and that the truth about him is found in the Bible. I don't believe anything in the Bible to be rubbish, but, of course, you are entitled to your own opinions about this. For you to say these things, you cannot possibly know Jehovah at all. Kinda makes we wonder where it is you get your information.
Todays present truth is good only for today & the next, but it again will become a lie & an untruth. Truth is Truth and should stand the test of time.... You are wasting your entire life to this organisation. Trouble is, you are cleary sooo sucked in that you havent even once considered that the WBTS could be wrong! You havent even thought to question why sooo many are leaving the organisation to never go back... Including those from bethel..
My hope though is that they return before it's too late, because otherwise they are going to be among "those slain by Jehovah," as Jeremiah wrote in connection with Armageddon at Jeremiah 25:32, 33. "As manure on the surface of the ground they will become." Why shouldn't I waste my entire life with this organization? Those that you mention have left the organization or are planning to leave were told by Jesus that 'only he that endures to the end will be saved.' (Matthew 24:13, so evidently for some reason they lost interest in salvation and that's ok.
It was their choice to leave; no one was going to try to force them to stay. They all have the God-given right to leave just as I have the God-Given right to stay, and I'm staying because I like the way my future looks. The end may come within the next ten years (I'm guessing), but if it takes another 100 years (which I really doubt!), I know that I'll have some treasures stored up in heaven.
Furthermore, I don't care if the WTS is wrong! So what? I am not following an organization as you imagine me to be doing. When you were once were masquerading as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, perhaps you were following men, and perhaps you didn't realize at that time that none of those men could save you. At least you know this now, but, as for me, I am following the Christ and also worshipping my God, Jehovah, the only true God, and giving honor as well to my king as well as savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. (Jeremiah 10:10)
Keep testing that you are in the REAL truth.... The God most high over all the earth will help you see things clearly, because I know in my heart of hearts the WBTS are not Jehovahs Channel of Communication.
Well, I believe the Bible provides some very good advice and that it also provides comfort to those that need comfort from someone as trustworthy as Jehovah God, who day and night is as reliable as a rock. I know from have read it that it is the truth.
I bid you well.... x
And me, you.
@djeggnog
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The Finger
Djeggnog,
lol!