The Baby and the Bath Water

by NeonMadman 49 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  NameWithheld2

  LOL funkyderek, I love the word play game. That was quite good!

  How's this, if you were god, how could you disprove that there wasn't a 'super-god'?
• 

  accuracy

  Reading the Gospel of John convinced you that Jesus was God? It had the opposite effect on me. Much of John has Jesus expressing his agency, of doing nothing except what his Father dictated. John has Jesus praying to someone else. Why would God have to pray to anyone? Then, near the end of the book, there is Jesus saying he has to ascend to his God. Imagine that! If Jesus has a God, how is it that he is God? As a Christian, I make the same Confession that John made, "that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God." (John 20:31, King James Version) Peter made a similar Confession: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Matthew 16:16, King James Version) "Son of God." Not "God the Son." The difference is more than semantic.

  Oh yes, there's John 1:1. John 1:1 has to be read in the context of the rest of the Gospel, otherwise John could have ended his book right there.
• 

  Unclepenn1

  Accuracy wrote >>Imagine that! If Jesus has a God, how is it that he is God?

  If Jesus is not God, how come He didnt rebuke Thomas for calling Him God? Read Hebrews chapter 1. The Father calls Jesus God. I dont think it gets any clearer than that. Also, I urge you to scroll through this web link. It is on the Deity of Christ, even using the NWT. I think you will find it enlightening.

  http://www.jude3.net/JWDOC.HTM

  Tom, great post. I will try to drop you a line through Yahoo Messenger some night.

  Love in the Lord,

  Penn

  P.S. You too Adonai :)
• 

  NeonMadman

  Mommie Dark

  I think you may have misread the purpose of my post.

  I'm always appalled at the arrogance with which Christian apologists view those of us who have made a careful study and come to the conclusion that atheism is the only sensible rational path. The same old tired cliche always gets trotted out; 'don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.'

  The purpose of my post was not to criticize those ex-JW's who have rejected religion, but to explore the path - the thought process, if you will, that has brought them, and others who have taken different paths, to where they are now. The business about the baby and the bath water was not aimed particularly, or even generally, at those who have rejected religion. It was a reference to myself, questioning whether I am going overboard in rejecting all that the Watchtower taught. I wanted to get some input as to what others thought about that.

  Rational intelligent atheists haven't 'thrown' anything out. We examined the water closely. We scooped it out in tiny spoonfuls and checked every drop for some genuine content. We strained it carefully, checking every step of the way for something, anything, alive and valuable in the tepid scummy water of religious writings and teachings.
  Our conclusion? No baby. Nothing alive or useful at all in all that stagnant old stale water. Just a lot of dire threats and fantastic promises of better future times.

  Good for you. You have thought matters through, and arrived at what is, for you, a reasonable conclusion. I respectfully disagree with your conclusion, but I didn't start this thread so we could argue about who's right and who's wrong. As I said, I'm thinking in terms of how we got to this point.

  At the sime time, surely you would agree that not every atheist or agnostic has "made a careful study and come to the conclusion that atheism is the only sensible rational path." I have no doubt that some who classify themselves as atheists and agnostics do so precisely because they do not want the moral strictures that religion entails. Others may have been offended by the ways of organized religion, and have therefore rejected faith of any kind. For others, it may have been a knee-jerk reaction just like what i described: "If this isn't the truth, then nothing is." And, like you, some have sincerely examined the issues and concluded that religion makes no sense.

  I know very few atheists who are vile unprincipled creeps. Most of us are highly ethical, honest, concerned citizens who realize that we have one shot at life, and we try our best to leave the planet a little better and saner than we found it.

  Frankly, you sound here a bit like the Witnesses touting their moral superiority to people of the world. There are plenty of "vile, unprincipled creeps," both within religion and outside it. I'm glad to hear that you are not like that. I agree with you that there are plenty of examples of vile, unprincipled creeps among religious people, as all of us who have spent time inside the Borg are keenly aware. But surely there is a natural tendency for a vile, unprincipled creep to adopt a worldview that requires no accountability to a higher power? Which is not to say the converse, that all who reject such accountability are vile and unprincipled.

  It's far easier to deny the veracity of the atheist's path than to take an objective look at it.

  Agreed. I think we have to be prepared to examine whatever comes our way, and that too many people of faith simply accept what they have been taught -whether about atheism or anything else - without examination. At the same time, I would contend that there are atheists who do the same thing, though you do not appear to be one of them.

  Tom
  "The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan
• 

  larc

  Tom,

  After reading your first post, and your reply to Mommie Dark, I think that you are operating from a position that you consider to be morally superior to others. Furthermore, you have have several stereotypes regarding atheists and agnostics that you share with others with your mind set. Although you conceede that some antheists/agnostics have made a thorough search - investigation and do live moral lives. Your statements also indicate that do not think that the majority fit this model. You say that some have made a knee jerk reaction. You say that others have come to their conclusions to justify an immoral life. I think you are way off base. My personal experience is in line with Mommie Dark's and not yours.

  As an agnostic, there are two places where I have met like minded people, here in the real world. Here, I have read extensively among the like minded on this issue. My observation is that they are very intelligent, analytical people who have put considerable time and thought into this issue. It was not a knee jerk reaction.

  I my personal life, I know about ten atheists. Of these ten, I would only classify one of them as immoral. I would classify all of them as intelligent people who put considerable time into developing their philosophy of life. One of these in particular, is one of the brightest person's I have known, and he is a very moral, responsible man. (details provided upon request)

  To sum up, I think you are operating from a set of assumptions, with do data.
• 

  NeonMadman

  larc:

  Although you conceede that some antheists/agnostics have made a thorough search - investigation and do live moral lives. Your statements also indicate that do not think that the majority fit this model. You say that some have made a knee jerk reaction. You say that others have come to their conclusions to justify an immoral life. I think you are way off base. My personal experience is in line with Mommie Dark's and not yours.

  I wouldn't presume to try to assert any statistics as to what percentage of atheists/agnostics arrived at that point for which of the reasons I cited; furthermore, I'm sure that not a few have gotten to that point by means that I did not list and have not conceived. Again, the paths taken is what I was asking about, and commenting on.

  Would you say that there is not one atheist or agnostic anywhere who got that way because he didn't want the moral restrictions associated with religion? I think it would be absurd for you to say that. Does that represent the majority of atheists/agnostics? Probably not. I have, over the years, talked to a lot of people who claimed to be atheists or agnostics, but who, on exploration of the subject, really just weren't interested in religion. They had no reason not to believe in God, and no reason to believe. It just wasn't important to them. I've even had people admit to me that they wanted no part of religion because it interfered with their lifestyle. My point is that, not everyone who professes atheism or agnosticism does so out of a background of investigation and contemplation; I would guess, based on my own experience that such persons are not in the majority of those who profess atheism or agnosticism, though they may well be in the majority of atheists who post on boards like this one.

  And, let's face it: if we combine all the atheists/agnostics whom you know, personally or on this board, with all the ones that I know, we're still speaking about a very small part of the whole, and whatever examples we can offer are anecdotal and inconclusive.

  Nor do I think it's very important that we get a percentage breakdown; I started this thread because I had been giving a lot of thought to how I got to where I am, and whether my path so far was as 'straight' as I could make it, so to speak. In other words, was I being reasonable with myself and my beliefs, and were my thoughts about things internally consistent? I asked others what they thought, hoping that their insights about the paths they have followed might shed some light on my own. In asking, I referred to atheists and agnostics. I also referenced Bible Students, Catholics, liberal Protestants, Wiccans, and Evangelical Christians. It seems a bit odd to me that there has been little response from all the other groups, but a great defensive upheaval among the atheists specifically, when there was no attack to begin with. Why do you suppose that is? My guess is that the atheists have become hyper-sensitive to religion of any kind and Christianity in particular, to the point where even a sincere question can be perceived as an attack, necessitating a counter attack.

  Let me say it again: I am not judging atheists and agnostics! I respect their position, though I will quickly again point out that I do not agree with it. I also do not agree with Bible Students, Catholics (though I'm married to one), liberal Protestants, Wiccans, etc. I didn't start this thread to push my beliefs, but to gain insight from others as to what their thought processes were after leaving the Borg, and, in effect to ask, 'how did you get to where you are'?

  Tom
  "The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan
• 

  GinnyTosken
• 

  ISP

  I think rejecting make believe is not throwing the 'baby out with the bath water'.

  ISP
• 

  larc

  Tom,

  Why did other groups not respond? Because there are very few of them here, that's why.

  You guessed that we are hyper-sensitive. You guessed wrong.

  Do any atheists take that course to commit immoral acts. Yes, a small minority. Any Christians who put on that cloak to steal and cheat others? Happens all the time.

  You know some people who say they are atheists who are really are not. They are rejecting organized religion. Perhaps I hang out with a more sophisicated group of atheists than you do, people who have thought this through.

  You say you don't judge. Funny how Mommie Dark talked about morality, and you accussed her of exercising "moral superiority" over you. Is this misreading on your part an example of projection?
• 

  funkyderek

  My point is that, not everyone who professes atheism or agnosticism does so out of a background of investigation and contemplation; I would guess, based on my own experience that such persons are not in the majority of those who profess atheism or agnosticism, though they may well be in the majority of atheists who post on boards like this one.

  Isn't that also true of believers, probably even more so? Most people will say they believe in god(s) but when pressed, they'll usually admit that they just believe because that's the way they were brought up or because "there must be something out there." As most people are raised to believe in god(s), it stands to reason that most atheists are people who have consciously rejected those beliefs, meaning that the percentage of atheists who have at least given the matter some thought is most likely considerably higher than the percentage of believers who have done so.

  --
  "The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794.