The Baby and the Bath Water

by NeonMadman 49 Replies latest jw friends

  • Billygoat
    Billygoat
    Surely, if someone does "have a stereotype that's incorrect" then the best way to educate them is to show them how absurd and ill-informed their stereotype is? If someone is wrong, then somebody should pass judgement. Otherwise, how will they ever be corrected?

    I'm a bit confused by your post, but my point was if you want to communicate truth to someone, doing it with attitude isn't going to motivate them to listen well. Doing it with sincere kindness instead of a reprimand is going to get the point across that much better.

    Andi

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman

    larc:

    He goes much farther than that. He holds certain stereotypes about atheists and agnostics that do not hold up under examination.
    Where did I express this stereotype? My original contention was that some ex-JW's who have rejected religion did so because "the Society demonizes all other religion, so the logical conclusion to reach is that, 'if this isn't the truth, then nothing is'." I also speculated that "the unreasonable restrictiveness of the borg may cause a reaction in many of being unwilling to accept any sort of religious restrictions in their lives." I then said that "All of this, in many, leads to a total rejection of faith of any kind." Notice, I said in many, not in all, not even necessarily a majority.

    Then, in a response to Mommie Dark, I said:

    At the sime time, surely you would agree that not every atheist or agnostic has "made a careful study and come to the conclusion that atheism is the only sensible rational path." I have no doubt that some who classify themselves as atheists and agnostics do so precisely because they do not want the moral strictures that religion entails. Others may have been offended by the ways of organized religion, and have therefore rejected faith of any kind. For others, it may have been a knee-jerk reaction just like what i described: "If this isn't the truth, then nothing is." And, like you, some have sincerely examined the issues and concluded that religion makes no sense.
    All of the above was speculation. I realize that people may have arrived at the same point by different paths. But it seems you cannot accept that. You seem to have a need to maintain the fiction that ALL atheists have become such because they have thoroughly researched and contemplated the matter, and rationally concluded that atheism is the way to go. And that attitude is just as dogmatic as the Watchtower claiming that Jehovah's Witnesses are better people morally just because they belong to the Watchtower organization.

    I didn't make any judgment as to what percentage of atheists arrived at their beliefs by what thought process; I specifically said that it wasn't necessary to make such a determination, that I didn't feel it was important to know that. But it seems to be very important to you to establish atheists as morally superior. Why?

    Tom
    "The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman

    rhett:

    Following the "just because there's no proof for something doesn't mean that its not true" line of thinking, I am the mesiah reincarnated. Send me all of your money so I can start a grand ministry. I'll make the world a great place for all of us as soon as I recieve your money. What? You think I'm full of crap? Well then, what proof do you have that I'm not the mesiah and won't make the world a peachy keen place to live? You can't prove that I'm not can you? Surely that must mean that I am!
    I'll be waiting for your checks.
    I think I understand the point you are effectively using sarcasm to make here. I said that atheism doesn't make sense to me, in effect because the atheist's position that there is no God cannot be proven or determined by finite man. Therefore, the most we humans can logically be is an agnostic. And, as I acknowledged, and funkyderek later pointed out as well, that's a matter of semantics. Certainly, the fact that we cannot prove that there is no God does not prove that one exists. Likewise, the fact that we cannot scientifically prove the existence of God does not mean that no God exists. It's really a matter of faith either way.

    Tom
    "The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

  • larc
    larc

    Joseph,

    I was thinking the very same thing that you wrote. I know how a believer's mind works because I used to be one.

    Billy Goat,

    Your opening comments to me made my heart flutter.

    Regarding Tom, I don't think I am attacking him. I am trying to educate him regarding my own personal experiences and observations. However, it is difficult for me to evaluate my word's impact on others.

    Tom,

    Because I pointed out that some so called Christians do harm, in no way implies that MOST do. I use all caps because you did. I think you made an inference from my writing that was not warranted.

    Regarding my opinions of atheists: As I stated earlier, my opinions are not just based on people here, but people in real life. Most of these experiences were obtained over a 15 year period in an old fashioned neighood bar. This environment had two advantages. It contained a very wide cross section of people, and it provided a very long time to get to know the true nature of the people there.

  • Sunchild
    Sunchild
    I also referenced Bible Students, Catholics, liberal Protestants, Wiccans, and Evangelical Christians.

    Token Witch, here. I don't know how many Wiccans and other Neopagans are hanging around this board right now (we have a tendency to wander off and do our own thing after awhile), but I just thought I'd let you know that, yes, there IS one here. That said, though, she'd just as soon stay out of this.

    *Rochelle.

    ---------
    "I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death -- if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach."
    -- Professor Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone.

  • nowaytess
    nowaytess

    I feel the same way you do Tom.

    Tom, if you are not a member of my club already, why don't you join us? The link is below.

    <A HREF= http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/christianexjehovahswitnesses </A>

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    Nice post, NeonMadman,

    Glad to 'hear' another evangelical on the board. Interesting point you make about those who as JWs placed their primary faith in the Bible.I know this was certainly the case with Mrs Ozzie and then, as JeffT puts it: "I became a Christian before I hooked up with the dubs. I THOUGHT that what they were telling me was the real stuff. When I found out it wasnt' I left. Just wish it hadn't taken 16 years to figure that out." In Mrs Ozzie's case,it was close to 50 years.
    But, at least, she made it, eh?

    Cheers,
    Ozzie

    "It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness."
    Anonymous

  • LoneWolf
    LoneWolf

    Sorry larc, but yes, you are way too touchy.

    I say that not due to your logic or observations, but due to the way that you have highjacked the thread. He was wondering what processes others have used to end up where they are today, and that is not only a very legimate subject, but one that could help many of the lurkers who are entering that stage of life. I hardly see where this twist could do as much good.

    Why should it be necessary for everyone to use words that are perfect in meaning and phrasing, with every 'i' dotted and 't' crossed, before those reading them can bring themselves to look for and answer the thrust of the question posed? Sadly, many if not most of us use such tactics due to our own doubts and lack of self worth, as it is a justifying of ourselves and our beliefs.

    I know those to whom one cannot greet with a pleasant "Hello, there!", without them reading some wrong motive into it. Should we waste our time in endlessly trying to convince them that we meant nothing bad?

    Personally speaking, I would love to read both yours and Mommie Dark's answer to the question he posed. I'm truly interested as I would imagine that both answers would be entirely human and logical, and would illuminate some paths that others may be unfamiliar with. In addition, both of you are gifted writers.

    NeonMadman ---

    To answer your question briefly, I guess that I (like usual) took a different course than most. I for reasons already mentioned by others, didn't want to go back to any of the other religions, because that is just the way it felt. I would be regressing.

    I'm only interested in going forward, and (I hope) I did. I figured it this way: The Bible speaks repeatedly of knowledge and how it would grow. I'd already checked the things that most of the other religions taught and rejected them, not because the WTBTS told me to, but because I had independently proved them to myself.

    Perhaps the most influential portion of that research involved the "Babylon" book, which to be honest, bored me stiff. However, we endured going through that book twice in the book studies, and toward the end of the second perusal I got a glimpse of the bigger picture that it was trying to portray.

    Some years after that, I got one of "The Two Babylons" books, and started reading that. That is one DEEP book. It took all I had to just comprehend what each subheading was saying, but when I did, it shook me up so bad that I would be unable to go further until I'd digested it, which usually took a week or more. When I finally got done with it, I couldn't rest and had to have more, so turned to some of the references it quoted. Some of the books I have in my library are "Ancient Fragments" by I. P. Cory, "Chaldean Account of Genesis" by George Smith, "The Oldest Stories in the World" by Theodor H. Gaster (many taken from the clay tablets), and "The Egyptian Book of the Dead" by E. A. Wallis Budge. Complimenting those are two exhaustive works on comparative legends, "Atlantis --- the Antideluvian World" and it's sequel, "Ragnarok --- Land of Fire and Water" by Ignatious Donnelly.

    From this study I gained a good idea not only of the history of religion, but of knowledge itself, and how things must have looked to our early forefathers. Knowing human nature and how we always seem to want to "codify" everything, it is no surprise to me to see that the Society would fall into the same trap. That leaves no room for the additional knowledge that will surely come along. (Perhaps you read my pieces "What Is Truth", and "The Natural Life Cycle of a Religion" that I posted a month or so ago.)

    When it turned out that there was rot in the Organization, it was no real problem. I just took the things that made sense and moved on, always looking to build on them. To my utter astonishment, I think I've made some progress. (No, I didn't have any visions, etc. )
    At least I've been able to come up with some reasonable answers to some of the things I and many others wonder about.

    I guess that makes me --- what? I definitely believe that there is a loving, caring, creator. How could I help it after such experiences as delivering my own child and seeing the look on my wife's face as I gently place it in her arms? (That happened four times.) Or that which is even more beautiful than a woman's love: her trust and faith? I feel at peace in that regard.

    But of course this is only one aspect of my trip out. I'd put more, but this is too lengthy now. I'll post a little more on another thread.

    LoneWolf

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    I know this was certainly the case with Mrs Ozzie and then, as JeffT puts it: "I became a Christian before I hooked up with the dubs. I THOUGHT that what they were telling me was the real stuff. When I found out it wasnt' I left. Just wish it hadn't taken 16 years to figure that out." In Mrs Ozzie's case,it was close to 50 years.

    And 30 years in my case (well, I was out mentally quite a while before that, but there were family considerations...)

    Interesting about becoming a Christian before hooking up with the JW's. That was my experience, too, though I haven't heard too many others say that. I became a JW because I already believed the Bible, and thought their teaching was closer to it than anyone else's. At least it looked that way when I was 17. Over the years, it became obvious I had misjudged, but by then I was married and had a daughter, and getting out wasn't such an easy task...

    Tom
    "The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman

    LoneWolf:

    No specific comments on your content, but thanks for a great response to my original question, exactly the sort of story I was hoping for when I started the thread. I may have to look up a few of those books you mention.

    Tom
    "The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

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