TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped 457 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Think About It

  If the majority of them had, then they probably wouldn't have had have their capital city Jerusalem be destroyed on multiple occasions as a punishment from Yahweh.

  So they were destroyed for not believing in the Trinity of God? Don't think so.

  That argrument is weak as you discount the times the Nation was faithful with good kings and godly prophets. None of the prophets of old worshiped a Trinity concept of God, but Constantine did? Those that wouldn't accept the Trinity were labeled as heretics and some put to death by the adherents? Does that sound like the true concept of God finally revealed? No. A person doesn't even need the Bible to refute the Trinity doctrine. Logic and history is enough to do so.

  I just want to say that if you will look up the writings of the early "Church Fathers" BEFORE the Council of Nicea, such as Tertullian, Ignatius, etc, you will see clearly that they were Trinitarians and they taught the Trinity well BEFORE 325 CE.

  I've read early "Church Fathers" writings and just as many were non-Trinitarians. None of the Bible writers or Jesus himself clearly spells it out. It wasn't until later that pagan Greek philosophical metaphysics about the nature of God influenced some early "Church Fathers" in that direction.

  Think About It
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Think About It, I was trying to say that the majority of the Israelites did not really know the True God very well (including His will, His commands, His love, and His Nature) which ultimately caused them to keep spiraling downhill morally and spiritually, to the point where God acted to punish them (on multiple different occasions).

  I am now going to focus all my attention on the topic at hand... Debating whether or not the Trinity is taught in the Bible using the New World Translation.
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  Think About It

  I am now going to focus all my attention on the topic at hand... Debating whether or not the Trinity is taught in the Bible using the New World Translation.

  I'll give you the same advice Issac Newton gave the Trinitarians of his day........."good luck with that."

  Think About It
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  designs

  Do you think a Jew living in the first part of the 1st century AD would speak in the Liturgical style of the 4th Century AD Bishops...
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  A Clarification that I think is seriously required at this point:

  The Trinity is Three DIFFERENT Persons who are ONE God (Each of the Three DIFFERENT Persons share the SAME Divine Nature).

  The Trinity Doctrine is NOT saying that The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the SAME PERSON. It NEVER has said that. Ever. This teaching is known as "Modalism."

  The Trinity Doctrine is NOT saying that there are Three Gods. Rather, ONE God who exists as Three DIFFERENT Persons.

  I hope this helps everyone to have a better understanding of what the Trinity Doctrine actually says.
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  designs

  Oh good, no one knew that
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  Think About It

  The Trinity is Three DIFFERENT Persons who are ONE God (Each of the Three DIFFERENT Persons share the SAME Divine Nature).

  The Trinity Doctrine is NOT saying that The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the SAME PERSON. It NEVER has said that. Ever. This teaching is known as "Modalism."

  The Trinity Doctrine is NOT saying that there are Three Gods. Rather, ONE God who exists as Three DIFFERENT Persons.

  I hope this helps everyone to have a better understanding of what the Trinity Doctrine actually says.

  Oh my god.........I finally understand it! Makes perfect sense.

  According to the doctrine of the Trinity:

  (1) God is the Father,

  and,

  (2) Jesus is God.

  Therefore, by transitivity, according to the doctrine of the Trinity:

  (3) Jesus is the Father.

  Yet, according to the doctrine of the Trinity, Jesus is not the Father.

  So, according to the doctrine of the Trinity, Jesus both is and is not the Father.

  Think About It
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  For djeggnog and ALL Jehovah's Witnesses (and other Bible-believers who do not believe in the Trinity), this is for you:

  Before we go too much farther in this debate/discussion, I humbly ask for your assistance. I am requesting your help in better understanding what you believe, and what you mean when you use certain words from the Bible, because you and I may have different definitions of these words or phrases.

  I think it would greatly help me personally (and the other Trinitarian believers here) to have a much better grasp on what you truly are saying, if you could help explain a few things for those of us who believe in the Trinity.

  1 Corinthians 14:7-11: As it is, the inanimate things give off sound, whether a flute or a harp; unless it makes an interval to the tones, how will it be known what is being played on the flute or on the harp? For truly, if the trumpet sounds an indistinct call, who will get ready for battle? In the same way also, unless you through the tongue utter speech easily understood, how will it be known what is being spoken? You will, in fact, be speaking into the air. It may be that there are so many kinds of speech sounds in the world, and yet no [kind] is without meaning. If, then, I do not understand the force of the speech sound, I shall be a foreigner to the one speaking, and the one speaking will be a foreigner to me.

  1:) What do you mean when you say that Jesus is "a god"? What does the word "god" mean exactly when it is applied to Jesus?

  2:) What does the word "Godship" mean in Romans 1:20?

  3:) What does it mean when you say that Jesus has the "Divine Nature" or the "Divine Quality" (Colossians 2:9)?

  4:) What do you mean by the word "Divine"?

  5:) When did Jesus become "a god"?

  6:) What does the word "Beginning" mean when it is applied to Jehovah? (Revelation 21:6)

  7:) What does the word "Firstborn" mean in Psalm 89:27?

  8:) What does "Only-Begotten" (Greek word "Monogenes") mean?

  9:) What was Paul teaching at Galatians 4:8? What did Paul mean when he spoke of "those who by nature are not gods"? And, wouldn't this mean that there has to be a different God (than the ones mentioned there by Paul) who IS by nature God?

  10:) Which Scriptures do you believe teach explicitly that Jesus was created by God?
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Designs said:

  "Oh good, no one knew that"

  Bane didn't lol
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  Podobear

  peacedog: With respect you haven't answered the question at all... Psalm 110:1 and all the texts linked through scripture clearly demonstrate that @TWO separate beings are referred to... and that thought continues in the Revelation. cf; particularly to Revelation 3:12 amidst the counsel and praise of the church in Philadelphia. Why would Bible writers pen such a complex meaning as you outline... YHWH to the Lord incarnate? Jesus is clearly separate from his Father after the Resurrection. Period. Nothing complicated... two identifiable and separate beings, not part of a Mystic Godhead.

  Podo