TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else (page 15)

Isaiah 63:9-10 (NWT): So it was to them that he came to be a Savior. During all their distress it was distressing to him. And his own personal messenger saved them. In his love and in his compassion he himself repurchased them, and he proceeded to lift them up and carry them all the days of long ago. But they themselves rebelled and made his holy spirit feel hurt.

Think About It

There are clues or hints of the Trinity in the Old Testament also:

Yeah, there is clues or hints of UFO's too, but nothing to make you clearly believe it. So I guess what you are saying about the OT is the Nation of Israel never really got to know or worship the true God. Amazing that he wouldn't completely reveal his Godhead until 325 A.D.

Think About It

UnDisfellowshipped

djeggnog,

You said:

"Moses, for the most part, completes the book of Deuteronomy before his death in 1473 BC, 741 years before Isaiah completes the writing of his book, some 1,505 years before another God came into existence. So Jehovah's declaration through Moses at Deuteronomy 32:39 is true. Isaiah began to prophesy in the year 778 BC and the book bearing his name (Isaiah) came to be completed in or about the year 732 BC. What I am saying to you is this: When you read Jehovah's declaration through Isaiah at Isaiah 44:6 that "'I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God. And who is there like me? ... Does there exist a God besides me? No, there is no Rock. I have recognized none,'" is also true. One would need to realize that it would be 764 years after the completion of Isaiah's prophecy that another God came into existence, an only-begotten god, who was not only given by Jehovah God a name that is above every name named, but was the first to be given immortality. This God through whom even the angels of Jehovah render worship is God's firstborn Son, the God whose own God and Father, Jehovah, made Jesus both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36) So why not take a right viewpoint."

My Reply:

Wow o wow!

I am somewhat in shock from reading that.

First, let me tell you thanks and I appreciate hearing from a Witness an explanation of Deuteronomy 32:39 and Isaiah 44:6. I have never had a Witness discuss those two verses with me before.

The reason i am shocked is, that since you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses (you did say that you are a Witness, didn't you?) I was not expecting you to say what you said at all.

First of all, I would like to ask for clarification of your statement. Did you mean to say that The Logos/Word did not come into existence until 1,505 years after Moses, OR did you mean to say that The Logos/Word did not BECOME A GOD until 1,505 years after Moses?

Either way, I have never ever heard a Jehovah's Witness teach this or believe this (I was "raised in the truth" and I went to meetings for 20 years and talked to many many Jehovah's Witnesses).

In fact, either way you meant it, are you aware that what you said actually goes against the Watchtower Society's official teachings in their publications? For the benefit of all of the viewers of this thread (and perhaps to enlighten you if you overlooked these Watchtower publications), I am going to post a few direct quotes from these Watchtower publications right here:

The Watchtower, September 15th, 1961, Page 552:

"So also the Logos was a god created by Jehovah.—Ps. 82:6, 7."

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Insight Book, Volume 2, Page 54:

"The Word’s preeminent position among God’s creatures as the Firstborn, the one through whom God created all things, and as God’s Spokesman, gives real basis for his being called “a god” or mighty one."

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The Watchtower, June 1st, 1988, Page 17:

"It highlights the nature of the Word, that he was “divine,” “a god,” but not the almighty God. This is in harmony with the many scriptures that show that “the Word” was God’s spokesman, sent to earth by God. As John 1:18 states: “No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god [the Son created in heaven by almighty God] who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has [come to earth as the man Jesus and] explained him [almighty God]." "

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The Watchtower, September 1st, 1984, Pages 28-29:

“The Only-Begotten God”

"Jehovah’s Witnesses do not deny Jesus’ godship, or divinity. [...] Although “a god,” Jesus “did not count equality with God [Jehovah] a thing to be grasped.” (Philippians 2:6, RS, both editions)"

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The Watchtower Society, since at least 1950, has always taught that Jesus was a god and the only-begotten god when He was first created! Always.

When I was going to meetings for 20 years, the Witnesses always taught that Jesus was a god right from the beginning, from when He was first created, before the Universe was created.

Now, if you truly believe what you said up above, if you believe that is what the Scriptures teach, then that is fine, you should teach it then, but I was just shocked to see that your beliefs were so different from the Watchtower's teachings on this.

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Okay, my initial shock is wearing off some -- now I think I can discuss this some more, using just the New World Translation.

Let's closely examine John 1:1-2:

John 1:1-2 (NWT): In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in [the] beginning with God.

Didn't John clearly and emphatically say that "IN THE BEGINNING... the Word WAS A GOD"? Did I miss something? Am I reading that passage wrong?

And, as if verse 1 was not enough, John REPEATS it again just to make sure we understand what he is teaching: "THIS ONE [i.e. this "god" just mentioned] was in the BEGINNING with God."

How do you explain what John meant when he said "IN THE BEGINNING"?

UnDisfellowshipped

Think About It said:

"So I guess what you are saying about the OT is the Nation of Israel never really got to know or worship the true God."

My Reply:

If the majority of them had, then they probably wouldn't have had have their capital city Jerusalem be destroyed on multiple occasions as a punishment from Yahweh.

UnDisfellowshipped

Think About It:

I do not want to get off topic on this thread (perhaps I will start another one about the earliest Trinitarian beliefs).

I just want to say that if you will look up the writings of the early "Church Fathers" BEFORE the Council of Nicea, such as Tertullian, Ignatius, etc, you will see clearly that they were Trinitarians and they taught the Trinity well BEFORE 325 CE.

designs

Undi-

So what does that tell us about the Bus load of Baptist kids who go off the road and get killed or seriously hurt..or the believer who begins speaking in tongues while driving and crashes into the car in front and hurts the innocent party. And how about those damn Tortillas with the faces of Jesus.

I must get back to Seminary and get my morning bowl of Miracle Rice Crispies in the cafeteria, then it will all make sense.

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

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