by theMadJW 309 Replies latest jw friends
Cantleave- it is you & he that are ridiculous.
You BOTH know that book was written 100 years ago when we were just STARTING to understand the Bible- and had a lot of nonsense we took with us from CHURCHianity (such as X-Mas, and the cross)- and that we NO LONGER have most of those beliefs.
NEXT!
Sorry, Hadit! I flit between to many forums, sometimes! You, then, said "The bible says he was flesh and bone and that the mediator is the man Jesus Christ. Those are NOT my words"
The account does N)T say he was bloodless. And by referring to the MAN, Jesus, he was reminding them of who he was since many of them had met him, and all had HEARD of him. That DOESN'T mean he went to heaven as a Zombie.
"You are trying to convince us BACK into where we came from!" Sorry if I give that impression! That is NOT my objective- for that is something you would have to desire, or not. However, Truth is truth- and THAT is what I promote and defend.
The references to "independent thinking" are ludicrous- for we only advocate not trying to be indeperndant of Truth from God.
The references to "independent thinking" are ludicrous- for we only advocate not trying to be indeperndant of Truth from God.
Er, that's not true, the references to independent thinking in the literature are generally with reference to not thinking differently to the Society.
But, yes, I know, you're a die-hard JW, so Society, God, same thing.
Since DJ Egg Nog posted his "case" for Jesus being Michael, I thought I would post my Counter-Argument:
djeggnog said:
"At Daniel 12:1, the prophet Daniel foretold a time of distress on the earth that had never occurred before on the earth, and it was indicated in his prophecy that during this same time period, the great prince, Michael, would be ‘standing up’ for the Jewish people. This angelic prince, Michael, at Daniel 10:13, is also referred to as "one of the foremost princes." In the Bible, the phrase "stand up," or words to this effect, means that the one that is said to "stand up" commences his rulership as king, and so this prince, Michael, the prophet Daniel says, stands up as king on behalf of God’s people during this time of distress."
MY REPLY:
If Michael is only "one of the foremost princes" then how could he possibly be Jesus? Wouldn't Jesus ALWAYS be THE FOREMOST PRINCE?
The Watchtower Society teaches that there are no other angels that are in the same class as Jesus, no others like Him. The Watchtower teaches that Jesus is the "only One of His kind." So how can there be other "foremost princes" like Him?
djeggnog said:
"At Matthew 24:21, Jesus Christ also predicted that such a time of distress would be coming that "[had] not occurred since the world’s beginning, ... nor [would] occur again," referring to this event as a "great tribulation." Now when reading Matthew 24:21, one can easily conclude that this is just a coincidence and nothing more, but keep in mind that Michael is described as one of the "foremost" princes, which is not to diminish other "foremost" angelic princes, for Gabriel is the only other angelic prince mentioned by name in the Bible and certainly he might be described as "foremost"among God's angelic princes. However, we notice upon reading Jude 9 that Michael is described in this verse as "Michael the archangel," where "arch-" carries the meaning of "foremost-angel" or "chief-angel." Note, too, that Michael is not just described in Jude 9 as an "archangel," but as "the archangel," which would mean that of all of the foremost princes, Michael is the only angelic prince that is an archangel. BTW, I should note here that there is an angel described at Exodus 23:20, 21, as having God's name "within him" and that the name "Michael" does mean "Who is Like God?" At Judges 2:1, 2, note that it is Jehovah's angel there speaking to Joshua, Moses' successor, the words: "I proceeded to bring you up out of Egypt.... But you have not listened to my voice."
MY REPLY:
Even if Michael is the only angel who is an "archangel," how does this prove that he is the same person as Jesus?
Also, why does 1st Thessalonians 4:16 (NWT) say "AN archangel" and not "THE archangel"?
djeggnog said:
"Although this angel is not Jehovah, notice that he speaks to Joshua as if he were Jehovah, which suggests something great about this particular angel's authority to speak for God, an authority, mind you, that no other angel seems to possess. Just compare how at Luke 1:13-19, the angel Gabriel speaks to Zechariah, John the Baptist's father, not "I am here to 'declare the good news' ... [about your barren wife Elizabeth's becoming mother to a son to you, whose name you are to call John] to you," but "I was sent forth to speak with you and declare the good news ... [about your barren wife Elizabeth's becoming mother to a son to you, whose name you are to call John] to you." Also, compare how at Luke 1:26-33, Gabriel says to Mary, not "I am with you," but "Jehovah is with you," not "you have found favor with me," but "you have found favor with God," not "I will give him the throne of David his father," but "Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father." "
MY REPLY:
I agree totally that "The Angel of Jehovah" in the Old Testament is the Pre-Human Jesus Christ. But again, what evidence do we have that shows this Angel to be Michael?
djeggnog said:
"Note now that in Daniel's prophecy at Daniel 7:2-8, Daniel sees a succession of world powers and each "beast" in this prophecy represents a world power that "stands up" and reigns as king, one after the other (as explained in more detail in Daniel chapter 11), until we read at Daniel 7:13, 14, where "someone like a son of man" becomes a king after the reign of the "fourth" ten-horned beast, and this "son of man" is given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him," and unlike the kingdom that preceded his kingdom, "his rulership is an indefinitely lasting [one], ... and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin." So in Daniel's prophecy both this "son of man" (Daniel 7:13, 14) and this foremost angelic prince Michael (Daniel 12:1) become a king. But note that at Ezekiel 21:27, God had told King Zedekiah that after him, the kingdom would become no one else's until the time appointed by God, at which point God would then give theocratic rulership to the one with the legal right to rule from God's throne. In many places in the Bible, Jesus identifies himself as being this "Son of man," for example, while being the Lord of the sabbath, Jesus describes himself as being "the Son of man" at Matthew 12:8, and at Matthew 16:27, Jesus says that "the Son of man" is destined to come, not with God's angels, but "with his angels." "
MY REPLY:
How did you conclude that the "Son of Man" from Daniel chapter 7 was the same as Michael?
djeggnog said:
"Keeping this in mind, it should jump right out at the reader of Revelation 12:7-10, that Michael is the Lord Jesus Christ, for we read there that "Michael and his angels" battled with the one called Devil and Satan, so that Satan was hurled down to the earth with his angels, at which time "the authority of God's Son, or Christ, came to pass. Is Michael not the Christ? But while there are so many things in the Bible that point to Michael as being the alter-ego of the Lord Jesus Christ, one thing that stands out to many is the apostle Paul's description of Jesus as raising those of the first resurrection from the dead "with an archangel's voice." Is Jesus an archangel? Yes, even as Michael is one of the foremost, or chief, princes, and Jesus, the Son of man, and the one to whom rulership, dignity and kingdom is given by God, is the one that descends from heaven "with a commanding call, [and] with an archangel's voice," the only right conclusion that can be drawn is that Jesus is not only an archangel, but is THE archangel, and both he and Michael are, in fact, the same person."
MY REPLY:
In Revelation, God and Jesus have given huge authority to all of their angels to carry out their judgments on the earth and on Satan and his people, so how does Revelation 12:7-10 prove that Jesus is Michael?
Also, in 1st Thessalonians Chapter 4, it says Jesus will be coming with AN archangel's voice AND with GOD'S TRUMPET.
If Jesus has to be an Archangel because He is coming WITH an archangel's voice, then Jesus would also have to be GOD because He is coming WITH God's Trumpet!
I look forward to your response.
Also, here is a debate I had with Joseph Malik in 2003 about whether Jesus was Michael:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/45177/1/Michael-the-Archangel
God has since then opened Joseph Malik's eyes to see the truth that Jesus is NOT Michael:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/189381/1/Jesus-is-Not-Michael
You BOTH know that book was written 100 years ago when we were just STARTING to understand the Bible- and had a lot of nonsense we took with us from CHURCHianity (such as X-Mas, and the cross)- and that we NO LONGER have most of those beliefs.
When did CHURCHianity ever teach that Michael the Archangel was the Pope?
Since we're talking about that nearly 100 year old book, I wonder if you can tell us whether or not some of these other teachings found in that book came from CHURCHianty? If so, can you cite references?
God has since then opened Joseph Malik's eyes to see the truth that Jesus is NOT Michael:
God has opened my eyes to see that Jesus IS Michael, and that you are an idiot who overlooks overwhelming scriptural support that proves it. You also blindly refuse to acknowledge the writings of all the prominent Protestant Theologians who agree that Jesus is Michael. Truth be known, the founder of your current sect thought Jesus was Michael.
Think About It
Think About It
Can you provide references to back up your assertions? What founder of what sect thought Jesus was Michael? What overwhelming scripture proves this?
Think About It
Don't deceive yourself by thinking the "prominent Protestant Theologians who agree that Jesus is Michael" you quoted, mean they agree with the WT, concerning the Deity of Christ.
edited to add:
Truth be known, the founder of your current sect thought Jesus was Michael.
Truth be known, it would be more acurate to say they believe Michael was Jesus.
Theologians Darby, Calvin, Henry, Gill, Brown, Concise, Wesley.
Evangelicals, Presbyterian, Protestant, Baptist, Methodist theolgoians who believed the Michael/Jesus connection.
Then for fun you can line up the 'others' who don't believe this, which pretty much sums up the whole delima these groups face.
Its so entertaining...
