And what if the voice belongs to an archangel that was doing Jesus' bidding? "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." Matt. 24:31 There are numerous occasions in the Book of Revelation where a mighty angel or angels are described with loud voices. To use the logic of JWs, why does the Father use lesser voices than His own? Doesn't he have His own voice? For example, see Rev. 5:2 and 7:2
Who really is Michael the Archangel?
by theMadJW 309 Replies latest jw friends
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Deputy Dog
Is the WT Jesus a two headed LIFE FORCE? Is he an Angel/Human hybred (MICHAEL the Angelman)?
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Chalam
tec Saying that Jesus is Michael is a far bigger leap in interpretation than the trinity, in my opinion.
Amen!
Some leaps of faith are good. However, believing Jesus is Michael is a foolhardy leap in the dark.
According to the WT, "Jehovah" created Michael, and then Michael created "all [other] things".
Strange how Genesis 1 puts it differently!
Genesis 1 (New International Version)
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
No surprise that John does not correspond to the WT teaching.
John 1 (New International Version)
The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Or Luke
Acts 17:24 (New International Version)
24 "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.
Neither Isaiah
Isaiah 44:24 (New International Version)
24 "This is what the LORD says—
your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
I am the LORD,
who has made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who spread out the earth by myselfBlessings,
Stephen
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theMadJW
1 Thess 4:16-For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Hmmmm! SO much diversion! I'm SHOCKED, I tellya! They not only CAN'T answer my question- but even throw MORE at me! You FIRST, churchoids!
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peacedog
lol @ "a two headed LIFE FORCE"... gotta remember that one.
Hey mad: I can bold and underline too! "...and with the trumpet call of God"
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peacedog
Archangel= the One who leads and commands the angels.
I wonder, has Jehovah ever commanded angels? Does this make Jehovah an archangel?
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theMadJW
Wonder all you wish:
1- That trumpet REALLY bothers you, eh? Prefer the Sax?
2- No, but it does Christ, since he was raised ABOVE his fellows, yet STILL retains his authority (voice) of Archangel!
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Kenneson
In Jesus' pre-existence it wasn't difficult for him to be above his fellows. After all, the fellows were made through him and for him. John 1:3; Col. 1:16
Now, as a human he was made a little lower than the angels. He certainly was not lower in his pre-existence. Heb. 2:9 So, it stands to reason that at his resurrection and ascension, it was his humanity that was glorified and raised above his fellows, not what he was previously.
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peacedog
madJW:
1- That trumpet REALLY bothers you, eh? Prefer the Sax?
2- No, but it does Christ, since he was raised ABOVE his fellows, yet STILL retains his authority (voice) of Archangel!
1) I don't really care for either instrument, to be honest.
2) I see. Jesus commanding angels means that he is an archangel while Jehovah commanding angels does not. Fine logic, that.
"Voice" at 1 Thess 4:16 is Greek 'phone' (Strong's 5456). The primary meaning of the word is "sound". When translated "voice", it is to say "the sound of a voice".
So according to 1 Thess 4:16, when Jesus descends, the sound of a voice of an archangel will be heard. Just a thought, but, um... could it be that the sound of an archangel's voice will be heard because when Jesus decends, there will be angels present?
Matt 24:30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Imagine that! Jesus will descend "with his angels", and at the same time, the sound of an archangel's voice will be heard...
And your Christological views are based on this verse?
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Think About It
This is an interesting article on the subject.
Trinitarians and Michael the Archangel
A trinitarian once claimed that no one ever thought that Jesus is Michael until Charles Taze Russell presented his teaching on such. This, however, can be shown not to be true, for the historical writings of many protestant trinitarians show that even many trinitarians have claimed that Jesus is Michael the Archangel:
Regarding Michael the archangel, we read:
“The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the pre-incarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the ‘child’ and the archangel in Rev 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in D[a]n[iel]l .” — John A. Lees, The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia , 1930, Vol. 3, page 2048. http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Def.show/RTD/ISBE/ID/6015/Michael.htm
Concerning Michael as recorded in Daniel 12:1 John Calvin states:
“I embrace the opinion of those who refer this to the person of Christ, because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing forward for the defense of his elect people.” — J. Calvin, COMMENTARIES ON THE BOOK OF THE PROPHET DANIEL, trans. T. Myers (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1979), vol. 2 p. 369. http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_vol25/htm/vii.htm
Theodore Beza:
Daniel 10:13 - Even though God could by one angel destroy all the world, yet to assure his children of his love he sends forth double power, even Michael, that is, Christ Jesus the head of angels. http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GenevaStudyBible/gen.cgi?book=da&chapter=010 . Daniel 12:1 – The angel here notes two things: first that the Church will be in great affliction and trouble at Christ’s coming, and next that God will send his angel to deliver it, whom he here calls Michael, meaning Christ, who is proclaimed by the preaching of the Gospel. http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GenevaStudyBible/gen.cgi?book=da&chapter=012
John Wesley:
Daniel 10:13 Withstood me – God suffered the wicked counsels of Cambyses to take place awhile; but Daniel by his prayers, and the angel by his power, overcame him at last: and this very thing laid a foundation of the ruin of the Persian monarchies. Michael – Michael here is commonly supposed to mean Christ. I remained – To counter – work their designs against the people of God. Daniel 10:21 – Michael – Christ alone is the protector of his church, when all the princes of the earth desert or oppose it. http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/WesleysExplanatoryNotes/wes.cgi?book=da&chapter=010 . Daniel 12:1 - For the children – The meaning seems to be, as after the death of Antiochus the Jews had some deliverance, so there will be yet a greater deliverance to the people of God, when Michael your prince, the Messiah shall appear for your salvation. http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/WesleysExplanatoryNotes/wes.cgi?book=da&chapter=012
Adam Clarke:
But lo, Michael Daniel 10:13 – Gabriel, who speaks, did not leave Cyrus till Michael came to take his place. Michael, he who is like God, sometimes appears to signify the Messiah, at other times the highest or chief archangel. Indeed there is no archangel mentioned in the whole Scripture but this one. See Jude 1:9 ; Revelation 12:7 . http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=10&verse=13#Da10_13
John Gill:
Daniel 10:13 – but, lo, Michael one of the chief Princes, came to help me; called in the New Testament an Archangel, the Prince of angels, the Head of all principality and power; and is no other than Christ the Son of God, an uncreated Angel; who is “one”, or “the first of the chief Princes” {x}, superior to angels, in nature, name, and office. http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=10&verse=13
Daniel 10:21 – and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your Prince; Christ the Prince of the kings of the earth, he was the Prince, Protector, and Guardian of the people of the Jews; he is the Angel that went before them in the wilderness, and guarded them in it, and guided them into the land of Canaan http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=010&verse=021
Daniel 12:1 – The Archangel, who has all the angels of heaven under him, and at his command, the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ; who is as God http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=012&verse=001Matthew Henry:
Daniel 12:1 – The angel had told Daniel what a firm friend Michael was to the church, ch. 10:21. He all along showed this friendship in the upper world; the angels knew it; but now Michael shall stand up in his providence, and work deliverance for the Jews, when he sees that their power is gone, Deu. 32:3. 6. Christ is that great prince, for he is the prince of the kings of the earth, Rev. 1:5 . http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryComplete/mhc-com.cgi?book=da&chapter=012
“There seems good reason for regarding Michael as the Messiah. Such was the opinion of the best among the ancient Jews…. With this all the Bible representations of Michael agree. He appears as the Great Prince who standeth for Israel (Dan. xii. I), and he is called “the Prince of Israel” (Dan. x. 21)
– William L. Alexander, ed., A CYCLOPEDIA OF BIBLICAL LITERATURE, originally edited by John Kitto, 3d ed. (Edinburgh: A & C Black, 1886). vol. 3, p. 158From some trinitarian sites:
Michael must be Jesus and that He is of the Godhead. Jesus is Michael the Archangel, the chief of the angels, and the captain of the host of the Lord. He is the one who leads the angels to victory! http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/michael.htm
There is no mystery here–Jesus, the Lifegiver, is Michael, the Archangel. Christians who accept this Bible-based teaching are neither heretics nor poor scholars, but faithful believers who love and eagerly await the coming of their Lord. http://www.geocities.com/biblerevelations_org/christ/is_jesus_michael.htm
Given time, many more quotes could be presented from trinitarians who believe that Jesus is Michael the archangel. Please note that we do not agree with all the conclusions given by these trinitarian authors. Trinitarian authors often present the idea that that Michael the archangel is uncreated, which we certainly disagree with . We are simply pointing out that these trinitarians did/do believe that Jesus is Michael the archangel. And yet, a trinitarian wrote that no Christian believes that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, evidently with the thought that anyone who so believes is not actually a Christian. We wonder if this would mean that those trinitarians who have and do proclaim that Jesus is Michael the archangel are not considered true Christians by other trinitarians because of their belief?
Think About It