Who really is Michael the Archangel? (page 6)

notverylikely

Tammy, kinda like when the WT says the 144K part is literal, but the vigins and mark on the forehead is symbolic? They are parsing a single verse into which words are symbolic and which are literal. Wacky

TD

A grammatically identical construction occurs in the LXX at Psalm 47:5

Ανεβη ó θεòς εν αλαλαγμω, Κυριος εν Φωνη σαλπιγγος

"God has ascended with a shout, the Lord with the sound of a trumpet"

As with 1 Thessalonians 4:16, the translator uses the English "With" as a synonym for "Amid" It's within the realm of possibility that God could be the source of the shout and trumpet blast but the text certainly does not demand it.

The Lord accompanied by a retinue is a common motif in the OT theophonies and this carries over into the NT. Deuteronomy 33:2-3 is a direct source for 1 Enoch 1:4-9 which in turn is a direct source for Jude 14-15 for example.

The parousia is frequently described in the NT as involving angels (or saints) accompanying the Lord (Mark 8:38, Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31; 25:31, Luke 9:26, 1 Thessalonians 3:13) so the sound of an archangel's voice is not unusual or out of place.

Chalam

OK, time for some more biblical facts about Michael compared with Jesus.

Firstly, how many times is Michael mentioned in the bible?

Here's all of them.

Daniel 10:13, Daniel 10:21, Daniel 12:1, Jude 1:9, Revelation 12:7

How many times is Jesus Christ mentioned in the New Testament alone?

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=jesus&x=0&y=0

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=christ&x=0&y=0

Probably about 2000.

How many times is Jesus mentioned by name in any of the verses regarding Michael?

Zero.

By title i.e. Lord? Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 12:3

Once

Jude 1:9 (English Standard Version)

9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."

Who clearly does the verse show the Lord is?

Someone else, certainly not Michael!

So who is the Lord? See five verses earlier.

Jude 1:4 (English Standard Version)

4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Any more verses which clearly show that the Lord is certainly not an angel?

2 Peter 2:11 (New International Version)

Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.

Chapters?

Hebrews 1

What about this verse? Is "the Lord" Michael?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 (New International Version)

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Just reading the verses alone seems that the Lord is neither the archangel or a trumpet.

Similar to Jude, read the preceding verses and it is clear.

1 Thessalonians 4:1-2 (New International Version)

1 Finally, brothers, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more. 2 For you know what instructions we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-15 (New International Version)

14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Blessings,

Stephen

designs

And yet all of those Trinitarian Theologians disagree with Stephen, and the Eastern Rites disagree with the Western Churches, what's going on in Trini Land?

Deputy Dog

Think About It

Given time, many more quotes could be presented from trinitarians who believe that Jesus is Michael the archangel. Please note that we do not agree with all the conclusions given by these trinitarian authors. Trinitarian authors often present the idea that that Michael the archangel is uncreated, which we certainly

disagree with

. We are simply pointing out that these trinitarians did/do believe that Jesus is Michael the archangel. And yet, a trinitarian wrote that no Christian believes that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, evidently with the thought that anyone who so believes is not actually a Christian. We wonder if this would mean that those trinitarians who have and do proclaim that Jesus is Michael the archangel are not considered true Christians by other trinitarians because of their belief?

The real issue is not "who Jesus or Micheal are" but "what". Why won't JWs answer the question?

Think About It

The real issue is not "who Jesus or Micheal are" but "what". Why won't JWs answer the question?

So you agree with the posted article and reference material from the Theologian founders of the Presbyterians (Calvin) and Methodists (Wesley) that Michael and Jesus are the same person? In that case the "what" is answered......Jesus Michael is a divine Son of God, Archangel, Only-begotten, First born of creation entity.

Don't know what you mean by "why won't JW's answer the question".

Think About It

designs

Well let's see, according to Saint Stephen here, who comes by every morning to convert us xJWs, and who claims Jesus speaks to him says that Jesus is definitely NOT Michael. But then Great Trinitarian Theologians like John Gill, Matthew Henry, John Calvin, Martin Luther say Jesus is Michael.

Dear me who to believe, crazy ass Saint Stephen or Murders John Calvin and Martin Luther.....I know let's use our Life Line and call Saint Perry, Saint Perry claims the real Jesus is inside him, that's should settle it, let's call Saint Perry.

Ring, ring ring , Ring.............

peacedog

MadJW:

"Escapism"? Lol, you ignore every post on the thread and then repeat yourself...

I leave you to your denial.

theMadJW

Sorry, ID- had company over last nite!

"If I were to say: "MadJW descended the mountain with a loud song" does that mean that you are necessarily the one singing?"

Mad: Of COURSE it would! What planet are YOU from? Now if it read 'the MadJW decended the mountain with ID singing loudly" it would convey YOUR escapism!

"the source of the song just as easily could be someone else."

Mad: So God's a poor writer? Continue squirming- your creativity is amazing!

"This doesn't make or break the case that Jesus is Michael, but it eliminates 1 Thessalonians 4:16 as conclusive proof."

Mad: ID, there IS no "conclusive proof" for ANYONE who doesn't want truth- thus the excuse "that's YOUR definition"! Jesus is NOT the Almoghty- or one of Three. With trinity Goggles on- NOTHING else can be seen clearly!

theMadJW

"

Ανεβη ó θεòς εν αλαλαγμω, Κυριος εν Φωνη σαλπιγγος

"God has ascended with a shout, the Lord with the sound of a trumpet"

"As with 1 Thessalonians 4:16, the translator uses the English "With" as a synonym for "Amid" It's within the realm of possibility that God could be the source of the shout and trumpet blast but the text certainly does not demand it."

No- it is NOT possible. Both God and Christ give a Loud Shout- a Powerful and Final Command long awaited!

Jesus leads the angels - is their Leader/Archangel- and speaks with that authority.

A clear picture that is easilky understood and very encouraging to any with REAL faith!

CHURCHianity- and the WTBS with prophecy- have been able to assign almost ANY concept imagined by saying the word COULD mean this, or it COULD mean that! You are dancing an "overlapping generations' number- and quite poorly at that!

Who really is Michael the Archangel?