Jacob I loved, Esau I hated!

by AIRVIEW1 30 Replies latest jw friends

  • Francois
    Francois

    Attempting to harmonize the murderous, capricious, war/weather, tribal god of the ancient Hebrews with the loving Father of us all as disclosed by Jesus is not only not possible IMHO, but also a waste of time. Such an effort can lead only to cognitive dissonance: the attempt to harmonize conflicting teachings, beliefs, or evidence.

    The ancient one also said that he hated the offspring of a bastard to the tenth generation, and also that as the father ate sour grapes and set the children's teeth on edge, so was he. Later, of course, he changes his mind and the foregoing no longer applied. This is the God that never changes, btw.

    And "hating" Esau? I don't think that the eternal god of the Universes has ever hated anything.

    $0.02.

    Francois

  • Tatiana
    Tatiana

    The following is taken from a great book I bought last year, entitled "The Harlot by the Side of the Road," by Jonathan Kirsch. I purchased it to read about how women were treated in the Bible, but learned a lot more than I expected.

    The Bible encompasses so many contradictory laws, rituals, and commandments that we are forced to pick and choose the moral instruction that we find most compelling. Of course, there are plenty of people who are willing to make the choice for us, and that is one of the reasons why the Bible is such an unfamiliar book to so many people-many of us rely on teachers and preachers to tell us what matters in the Bible and what can be discarded.

    Over the centuries, and never more so than today, we have tended to be drawn to the kinder and gentler moral imperatives that can be found in the Bible. "And what does the Lord require of thee?" writes the prophet Micah, whose message is especially compelling because it is so compassionate-and so simple. "Only to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with God." (Mic.6:8)

    But a simple credo does not go far enough; wars have been fought (and are still being fought), men and women have been tortured (and are still being tortured), and lives have been lost (and are still being lost) over the question of what is just and what is merciful. The history of the Bible-based religions is also the history of book-banning and book-burning, inquisition and excommunication, holy war and holy crusade, martyrdom and mass murder, and the rack.

    "Religious intolerance," as Freud observed, "was inevitably born with the belief in one God." The real challenge of the Bible, then, is to reach some common understanding of how an article of faith translates into a concrete act of human conduct--and that is why we hunger for words of moral instruction from the Almighty to fill Sartre's god-shaped hole in our soul, words that can be understood and acted on, not in heaven, but here and now!

    Much attention has always been paid to the externals of religious practice, but the Bible depicts God as having little interest in such matters. Elaborate ceremonies of worship, no matter how solemn and reverent, are meaningless in the eyes of God if they are not accompanied by nmercy and justice, as we are told by the prphet Isaiah. "Your new moons and your appointed seasons, My soul hateth; they are a burden unto Me; I am weary to bear them, " God warns Isaiah. "Yea, when you make many prayers, I will not hear." (Isa.1:14-15)

    In a passage from Isaiah that is read aloud in contemporary congregations on the first day of Yom Kipper, the Day of Atonement, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar, the prophet tells us what God really wants of us in simple, straightforward, and specific terms:

    "It is to share your bread with the hungry,
    And to take the wretched poor into your home;
    When you see the naked, clothe him,
    And not to ignore your own kin." (Isa. 58:7)

    This book has many chapters also about who actually wrote the Bible,

    "Today, the Bible is regarded by most scholars and critics as a patchwork of legend, lore, and law that was created over a thousand years or so in distant antiquity by countless unknown chroniclers and lawgivers and storytellers, collected and compiled and corrected by generation after generation of editors (or "redactors"), and canonized by the ancient rabbis only toward the end of the Biblical era. Thus, even if we regard what we find in the Bible as divinely inspired, the words themselves were spoken aloud by human voices and set down in writing by human hands."

    Who knows what transpired between storytelling? It's like that old game, where you sit in a circle and one person thinks up a story and whispers it to the person next to them, and it goes on and on until the last person has to tell the story. It inevitably gets screwed up, even after only about twenty minutes!!

    " Over the centuries, the storytelling traditons were expanded and elaborated upon by priests and scribes whose goal was to formalize the stories and make them fit into the official faith of ancient Israel. The priests themselves promulgated law codes and prescribed elaborate rituals for high holy days and day-to-day life. At the same time, the archivists and chroniclers in service to the early monarchs began to write down official accounts of royal births and deaths, victories and defeats in wartime, international trade and treaties in peacetime. Then, in times of crisis, along came the seers and sermonizers whom we call the Prophets, and their visions and scoldings and exhortations were added to the sacred literature of ancient Israel.

    Over the span of several centuries, starting around 1000 B.C.E. and ending sometime after 200 B.C.E., all of these many strands of storytelling, poetry and song, sacred law, priestly ritual, and court history were written down, gathered up, stitched together and offered to the people of ancient Israel and their posterity in the form of the book that we know as the Bible."

    April
    I was angry with my friend; I told my wrath, my wrath did end. I was angry with my foe; I told it not, my wrath did grow. (William Blake, A Poison Tree)
    http://www.network54.com/Forum/171905

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    Just a thought

    I tink that the Bible wasn’t really written for us to understand as much as it was saved for us to use as a kind of example of what kind of people in general God wants us to aspire to be. Aside from the 7 or 800 commandments were suppose to follow there are really only a few basic rules (It seems to me anyway) that he actually expects us to be able to stick to the biggest one being having faith in him and never forget why were even still here, because Jesus died for us.
    We all know that its been proven that the human race for some reason only taps into one quarter, sometimes a lot less, of our brains, so who knows what we will be able to understand in the future. The bible might be as easy to read in the future as “See Spot Run” is to us now. I can’t think of any reason why we would have that much left over brain space unless someday we were going to be able to use it.
    In the mean time looking at the way peoples have re-written, rearranged, filled in and then fought over, to date, what does everything in the Bible mean, all we’ve really accomplished is to look really silly in the eyes of any superior form of life.
    I guess my point is, maybe we have been digging a little bit to hard all these centuries.
    Sometimes trying to understand certain scriptures, reading them over and over just gives me a headache
    palm

  • GinnyTosken
    GinnyTosken

    Airview1,

    Yes Ginny can a lepord change his spots?
    What would Gods mercy be for if he could not extend it to one of his dishonorable clay pots that asked for it?
    I am sorry that I didn't read your original post more carefully. I ended up repeating many of the points you'd already made.

    If there is a God, I don't want to believe that he is so arbitrary. Many of the Biblical descriptions of "justice" make no sense to me. If human beings acted in some of the ways that are attributed to God, we'd be appalled.

    I've given up trying to make sense of the Bible. I believe it is a record of a people trying to understand God's ways as best they could. It's helpful to see how they grew from concepts such as collective judgment to individual judgment, the legalism of the law to the law of love, and how they wrestled with other questions of their day. I don't think their answers necessarily have to be our answers.

    From what I've seen, human beings can change their behavior. It isn't always easy, and we must fight against some influences over which we have little control--heredity, environment, etc. If there is a God, I want to believe that he understands, has compassion, and shows mercy.

    Ginny

  • William Penwell
    William Penwell

    How much of the OT can you believe?? You can't live your life in this 21 century on old myths, superstitions and legends. Take it for what it is just a story that was written after the fact.

    Will

    "I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's."
    Mark Twain

  • teejay
    teejay

    The ancient one also said that he hated the offspring of a bastard to the tenth generation, and also that as the father ate sour grapes and set the children's teeth on edge, so was he. Later, of course, he changes his mind and the foregoing no longer applied. This is the God that never changes, btw.

    Good point, Francois. I'd forgotten about that. There's other scriptures that say the same thing.

    ----------------------------------------
    We cannot understand it fully because at our stage of development we are simply incapable of understanding it fully... I believe it is so designed as to cause us to search diligently for the meanings, SOME of which we will definitely find and understand.

    [b]Frenchy[b],

    I once held that same view, of course. Feeling that one stage, a later stage, of the human family stood a better chance to understand the bible (adding to what previous generations had come to decipher) than earlier ones only means that the bible wasn't meant for HUMANS to understand, only HUMANKIND. The "truths" that the folks in the Middle Ages, let's say, were able to make sense of left many other mysteries that came to be understood later.

    Extending that out further, perhaps those that are alive 2000 years from now will have a much better understanding of God and it's for THEM the bible was written.

    I once said that you will find exactly what you’re looking for when you go looking in the Bible. Motives are established, personalities more clearly defined. I think that it’s doing its job marvelously.

    *shrugging my shoulders... nodding in agreement*

  • AIRVIEW1
    AIRVIEW1

    Well God didn't much like a bunch of bratty kids speaking disparagingly against an ole dude and he sent a pack of she bears to rip them apart. I guess i'd rather be in his favor.

    airview

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    What is this "the bible is (or isn't) 'meant' to be..."

    A collection of writings is only "meant" to be whatever the person who collected them means it to be. Said collectors did not indicate their meaning, not clearly. I suppose they "meant" them to be God's guide for life, but who really needs to care what they meant. They were just a bunch of jewish and catholics who had assumed a leadership role. The last people a smart person would trust.

    Why on earth anyone would turn their spirituality over to the people who compiled the bible is beyond me. That is, it is beyond me now that I know I don't have to do so to live well and healthy.

  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    You guys really need to study the book of Romans. Paul explaines this passage in Romans 9. No need for me to paraphrase it. While your at it, the book of Romans lays out the basis of Christian theology and please use a real Bible, not the NWT. For those really into deep theology I recommend the MacArther, New King James study Bible.
    You can also research under the topics of, "Election", "Calvinism", "Predestination" in want to see the complete scriptural backing of the "Election" principles.
    God chooses us for salvation not on anything that we do or have done, He has chosen us before the founding of the world, predestined our lives yet we have a measure of "free will" and responsiblity in our life choices. As Eph. 2. 8,9 says, "We are saved by grace through faith, not of ourselves it is a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."
    This is one reason that relgions that hold to a "works" salvation (or even adding baptism as a requirement) are in error. Once you add anything at all to "grace through faith", it ceases to be that very thing!
    Rex

  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    Well Ginny,
    This is a theological issue and not one for pushing "Jesus Seminar' atheistic critisism that discounts the inspiration of scripture BEFORE the 'research' even begins.
    Rex

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit