What Is The True Gospel Message? (page 3)

wobble

Dear Isaacaustin,

I see that Wannabe has not answered your last question.

I wonder why ?

Is it perhaps because if he cannot do so in a satisfactory manner, he cannot come here and lecture us as to what is the "Truth" ?

isaacaustin

Wobble, I am led to believe the same thing. What other conclusion can I draw?

isaacaustin

Wobble, you mean Livingbreeze, right? Not Wannabe...I addressed my question to Livingbreeze.

Livingbreeze

You have made some valid points there. I would wonder what you believe about the condition of the dead,

Man has a soul that lives beyond the body

the dead are concious of nothing, without the resurrection there is no hope of being concious and alive again.

who are the 144,000,

Jews

Spiritual Israel accepts Christ and they are both Jews and Gentiles

what is God's purpose for the earth and mankind,

for man to ultimately live, where New Jerusalem will be

funny, Christendom always taught me everyone goes to heaven

do you believe while being mortal, we have an immortal soul?

Yes

interesting you don't even believe in our own mortality, only Christ and those he chooses come to have "life in themselves" (immortal) while the rest of mankind recieves everlasting life in dependance upon God, mixing two different things, mortality and immortality is a contradiction.

Do you believe God's punishment of the mortal wicked is never ending torment?

hell

how then is death and hell cast into the lake of fire, sybolizing the second death, which means no hope forever of being resurrected to life and conciousness?

My question to you:

On what basis do you claim that the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses is God's sole and direct channel of communication to man?

I didn't claim that, but I will say they have not steered me wrong as Christendom did, the bible, along with the help of the holy spirit, through Christ is God's means of communication, I don't find their teachings out of line with the bible, which is like God's written garantee that he said it or had it recorded. On what basis do the leaders of Christendom (the clergy) claim to speak for God?

PSacramento

the dead are concious of nothing, without the resurrection there is no hope of being concious and alive again.

Indeed, this is directly from ECC of course, and yet, you see this progression of understanding of what death and the ressurection mean from there, to second temple Judaisim to Christianity.

Spiritual Israel accepts Christ and they are both Jews and Gentiles

Revelation doesn't say that, it states clearly who they are, you are going beyond scripture with your interpretation.

funny, Christendom always taught me everyone goes to heaven

Their Spirit goes to Heaven to be with God but I agree that at times the message is a bit "garbled" about that.

There is only ONE that speaks for God and that is the ONLY annointed ONE, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

wobble

Surely a follower of Jesus, who is " the Way the Truth and the Life ", would not want to be part of a group that makes lying claims, which is what the WT/GB does, claiming that they speak for God and salvation is only through them.

Livingbreeze is living in a fantasy world to claim they have not been steered wrongly, anyone who puts himself/theirselves in the place of Christ as the GB of Jehovah's Witnesses do are false guides, and guilty of blasphemy.

Livingbreeze

So really then, since Christ is the only one that speaks for God, the problem begins with interpretting what he said. Do we now reject the letters from the apostles and prophets since only Christ speaks for God?

Revelations speaks about Spiritual Israel comprised of Jews and Gentiles, do you not remember the natural olive tree and how Gentiles were graphted in? Do you not remember he would take of the two (Jews and Gentiles) and make one new man? Do you not remember that there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male nor female for we (the annointed) are all one in Christ?

Today, there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, all have been concluded under sin and salvation comes in the same way for all. Jews and Gentiles must all come to Christ for salvation, and only God (the source of salvation) can bring us to Christ. Natural Israel of course was comprised of Jews only, Spiritual Israel is comprised of all who are chosen by the Lord, Christ Jesus, to be his kings and priests, if there is a group that will rule, there will be those who are ruled by them, Christ being the head, and the head of Christ is God. Do we not remember that Jesus spoke to the Jews telling them their house had been abandoned? So, how is it then that they could be saved, and how is it that Gentiles were not now included since Jesus death and resurrrection?

I hope I don't have to pull up all the scriptures that touch on the points made here, I think I am speaking to a versed group here.

The apostles never claimed that salvation was by or through them (neither does the Watchtower Society make this claim), yet they spoke for God and Christ, showing and proving in the scriptures God's means of salvation, they themselves being eye witnesses of Jesus death and resurrection. Paul, who was called later, being so bold as to say, "follow me, even as I follow Christ", was Paul out of line, asking us to follow him? . If the clergy of Christendom claims to speak for God, who authorized them, and what history of fruits do they have, especially during the two world wars? Persons within Christendom also claim to be annointed, who really are the annointed ones?

Salvation is through Christ, but salvation from what and to what?

designs

As the predecessor to Jesus, Rabbi Hillel, said 'Do good to your neighbor, that is the entire Torah'.

isaacaustin

Livingbreeze said:

The apostles never claimed that salvation was by or through them (neither does the Watchtower Society make this claim),

My reply:

The Wt has said flat out:

"Come to Jehovah's organization for salvation."

I do not know exactly how much clearer they could have said it for you to understand.

isaacaustin

You have made some valid points there. I would wonder what you believe about the condition of the dead,

Man has a soul that lives beyond the body

the dead are concious of nothing, without the resurrection there is no hope of being concious and alive again.

You are quoting Solomon out of context and nailing it as a proof-text. This was a depressed and fallen from God Solomon philosophising about life...here are his words in full:

Eccl 9:

5 For the living know that they will die,

but the dead know nothing;

they have no further reward,

and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate

and their jealousy have long since vanished;

never again will they have a part

in anything that happens under the sun.

Even JWs do not teach this. Solomon said that they have no reward and the memory of them is forgotten...while the Wt teaches they may have a reward and not all are forgotten.

who are the 144,000,

Jews

Spiritual Israel accepts Christ and they are both Jews and Gentiles

Following your viewpoint (which may be correct) then that would make the Revelation 7 description of 12,000 out of 12 tribes symbolic...making the number 144,000 symbolic.

what is God's purpose for the earth and mankind,

for man to ultimately live, where New Jerusalem will be

funny, Christendom always taught me everyone goes to heaven

Broad generalization. However, nowhere does the bible substantiate that one class will go to heaven and rule over another class on earth.

do you believe while being mortal, we have an immortal soul?

Yes

interesting you don't even believe in our own mortality, only Christ and those he chooses come to have "life in themselves" (immortal) while the rest of mankind recieves everlasting life in dependance upon God, mixing two different things, mortality and immortality is a contradiction.

You do the work here and paste those verses you feel substantiate your assertion here and then I will comment.

Do you believe God's punishment of the mortal wicked is never ending torment?

hell

how then is death and hell cast into the lake of fire, sybolizing the second death, which means no hope forever of being resurrected to life and conciousness?

Hell is not a final destination, gehenna is.

My question to you:

On what basis do you claim that the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses is God's sole and direct channel of communication to man?

I didn't claim that, but I will say they have not steered me wrong as Christendom did, the bible, along with the help of the holy spirit, through Christ is God's means of communication, I don't find their teachings out of line with the bible, which is like God's written garantee that he said it or had it recorded. On what basis do the leaders of Christendom (the clergy) claim to speak for God?

I did not claim any group is God's channel. The Wt claims they themselves are.

What Is The True Gospel Message?

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