gravedancer ---
You're invitation is welcome, as this whole area of thought is something that I've pondered for at least half a century. I remember as a child (I'm 61 now) wondering how on earth Satan could think that he could get away with rebelling against an all powerful God. Was he suicidal?
I must be honest though in saying that my own thoughts run very similar to that of DakotaRed. I hope that you are like I am in that I don't wish to discuss this so much with those who agree with me as I do with those who don't. The reason is that when two (or more) earnest individuals disagree and then forget themselves in trying to find what the truth actually is, much can be learned. Those who disagree with me will pose the questions that I need to answer, and usually those answers will fall somewhere in the middle between our positions.
That said, I'd like to back up a bit and point out a something that figures very heavily upon the outcome of such a discussion as you propose. As you undoubtedly know, in mathematics if just one factor is left out, the answer will almost always be wrong, and sometimes so badly so that it will have no similarity at all to the real one.
This factor is well expressed in D Wiltshire's motto: "If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?"
I would suggest that what we don't know is a heck of a lot bigger than what we do know. If we don't factor that in, our results are going to be skewed. After all, we as humans are trying to figure out what both Jehovah's and Satan's thoughts and strategies are.
And please do not misconstrue my words as saying that it is wrong or futile for us to try, for I believe exactly the opposite.
Let me illustrate: Benjamin Franklin knew that 1+1=2. If we lived then and didn't agree with that, he would probably have called the little men in white suits and had stuck us in the cackle factory for a spell.
Since that time additional knowledge has become available. Let me quote from a post I made a few months ago:
What if we are dealing in the binary base where the only numbers used are “0” and “1”? Then it isn’t 2, it’s 10. At one time, such a concept would have been considered a silly mind game, but now that principle is the very heart of the computer world. They wouldn’t work without it. Who would have believed a century ago that the binary base would come to have such importance in the world now?
Or what if we are in the world of biology? There 1+1 can equal 2, or 200, or 2,000, or 2,000,000. It all depends upon how long the 1 has been with the other 1. Look at the rabbits in Australia and all of the environmental damage they’ve caused.
A further quote from the same post illustrates our position as humans:
. . . picture two of the most intelligent men of their age, Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, trying to understand and fix one of today's computers when it was broken down.
When we look into the past and compare our knowledge now with what they had then, we appear to be light years ahead of them. That makes us feel good and flatters our egos. But in the process we tend to forget that there is far more yet to learn; many more “leaves” to discover on our “truths”.
We could say that we are like a sand flea on the beach in Alaska. Every evening at dusk they migrate down to the water line and every dawn go right back up to the vegetation line to sleep during the day. All we are is like the one who decided to go a little farther, climbed the 15 foot bank above the shore and looked out at the magnificent view that no other sand flea in history ever saw.
He would be quite proud of himself, wouldn't he? He may even wish to lord it over his fellows and claim to have all knowledge. But what he doesn't realize is that a few miles further inland, there is a mountain that goes up another 20,305 feet. That rather dwarfs his measly 15 feet, doesn't it? How are we any different?
(If you would like to read the rest of the post, here's the address): http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=16624&site=3
Notice the difference in the manner we will approach these things:
If we refuse to recognize anything unless its parameters fall within those things we know and understand, then we will tend to draw conclusions and pass judgements on them.
If we recognize the factor of the unknown, we tend to concentrate on gaining additional knowledge.
Now look at what this one additional factor does to the questions you pose. Instead of only two, there are now at least four. They are:
1. God is almighty (And Adam didn’t have freewill.)
2. God gave Adam freewill (But God is not almighty.)
3. Both 1 and 2 are true (But we have yet to understand the mechanics of how the two coexist.)
4. Both 1 and 2 are false (As our understanding of them is inadequate and/or mistaken.)
Occam’s razor has its points. It’s a fancy way of restating the common acronym K.I.S.S., “Keep it simple, stupid! After all, if the taillight goes out, don’t start rewiring the car. You may have to, yes, but it’s much more likely that the bulb’s burned out.
We must remember that it is simply a tool like any other tool. It can be used correctly or incorrectly. One does not use a screwdriver to drive nails, nor use a hammer to drive screws. (Though I’ve known a few nuts that did. )
Many times it is useful, but in some problems and most research it does more harm than good for it limits the imagination as well as hinders the recognition of the complexities involved.
This said, I’d like your input on something. I’ve done a considerable amount of research and pondering on this whole matter and have come up with a few answers for some of the questions contained on this thread. You will note that I did not say they were the answers. They are merely possible answers that are still incomplete and in desperate need of a great deal more work and input. I would deeply appreciate your input and that of any others who wish to contribute.
I’m posting it under the heading “The Problem of Evil” in three episodes: “The Dilemma”, “The Plot”, and “The Answer”. As a bare minimum I think it will give you something to think about.
Hope you like them.
LoneWolf
