by Quillsky 243 Replies latest jw friends
I'm going to try to reword it again. (For "god" also read "gods".)
Belief: I specifically believe there is no god.
Non-belief: I don't absolutely believe there is a god.
Anti-belief: Okay, I realized that non-belief and anti-belief are close to the same thing, once I tried to put it into other words! It's sort of "I don't believe in belief about god".
So Essan, if someone couldn't be bothered to believe (falling into my "non-belief" category), you're saying that makes them agnostic? I say it makes them an atheist that couldn't be bothered to believe.
Tammy, if you don't mind I shall use your quote to illustrate the problem I'm exploring here.
Atheist - no belief in God (creator of universe)
There are two ways of expressing this, both meaning completely different things.....
I have no belief in this entity. (Perhaps, I have not given much thought to this entity, ergo I have no belief in it. If one day I give some thought to this entity I may shift into the agnostic category.)
I actively believe that there is no entity like this.
Q said:
"I'm going to try to reword it again. (For "god" also read "gods".)
1) Belief: I specifically believe there is no god.
2) Non-belief: I don't absolutely believe there is a god.
Anti-belief: Okay, I realized that non-belief and anti-belief are close to the same thing, once I tried to put it into other words! It's sort of "I don't believe in belief about god"."
But if someone says 2 it inherently implies 3:
3) I don't absolutely believe there isn't a God.
Which would necessarily make them an agnostic who doesn't absolutely believe in either the existence or non-existence of god/s.
If someone claims 2 but denies 3, they actually invalidate 2 also, they contradict themselves, because 2 inherently implies uncertainty:
"I don't absolutely believe there is a god"
Yet if they can't also say that they "don't absolutely believe there isn't a God" then they reveal that actually they DO absolutely believe there isn't a God, which belies their previous claim of uncertainty (2).
Selective claimed "non-belief" is belief, otherwise non-belief would be applied consistently, unbiasedly, equally to all unproven claims both negative and positive ("there is" and "there is not").
LOL! My mind is in a twist. I'm going to read your post again and see if I can come up with an intelligent response, but for now I want to say, I see the "atheism" terminology issue as having three levels....
The obvious theo/god thing.
The belief thing (not believing in something, versus believing that something isn't)
And the couldn't give a damn thing, which I suspect drives the majority of atheists in their identification with the term "atheist".
Yeah, it's a knotty problem LOL. There is what people mean when they use words Vs. what those words actually mean. A lot of people use words and claim labels wrongly, sometimes as an acceptable disguise for a less acceptable viewpoint.
A typical, and related, example is 'skeptic'. Lots of people claim to be 'skeptics' who are not skeptics at all, they are 'pseudo-skeptics', active deniers, they have active disbelief and assert negative claims ("X is false"). Whereas again, a truly skeptical position is agnostic ("X is unproven").
Commentaries: On Pseudo-Skepticism
Likewise, there are 'pseudo-atheists' and probably 'pseudo-agnostics' too, either through ignorance or by design.
If someone claims 2 but denies 3, they actually invalidate 2 also, they contradict themselves, because 2 inherently implies uncertainty:
"I don't absolutely believe there is a god"
Hmmm, so a 2, an atheist who has no belief, is actually an agnostic? No my friend, they just don't have a belief, which makes them an anti-believer (my 3, you messed with my numbers.)
Yet if they can't also say that they "don't absolutely believe there isn't a God" then they reveal that actually they DO absolutely believe there isn't a God
The quadruple negatives are doing my head in.... I'm going to bow out here because it doesn't make for fun reading.
I think philosophically, one should distinguish between ontological and epistemological claims. A statement that "I specifically believe there is no god" is a statement about the existence or non-existence of a posited entity. The statement that "I don't absolutely believe there is a god" is a statement about belief, and ultimately, of knowledge, of what is knowable. These two claims are fundamentally different, but frequently are conflated or confused with each other.
For those who need labels to view the world, then this matters.
I always find it funny that theists want to make it seem that atheism is a belief system of sorts, almost like a religion. Ergo, they are in no position to critcize organized religion.
That's why the arguement is waged.
Personally, I think atheists are fine and don't practice a religion, or have an organized belief system. They are free to believe whatever they want, since they don't believe in god.
Agnostics are different.
Labels suck. :)
"Hmmm, so a 2, an atheist who has no belief, is actually an agnostic? No my friend, they just don't have a belief, which makes them an anti-believer "
OK, your 3, An "anti-believer" - one who does not accept the validity of unproven beliefs - is the definition of an agnostic. An agnostic dismisses the belief in God and the belief that there is no God, because he is "anti-belief" and will not accept, either way, that which cannot be proven. He has no dealings with "beliefs".
Atheist
1570s, from Fr. athéiste (16c.), from Gk. atheos "to deny the gods, godless," from a- "without" + theos "a god" - http://dictionary.reference.com/etymology/atheist
An atheist does have belief. If he had no belief he'd be agnostic. Theist and Atheist are opposite beliefs, two sides of the same coin, two ends of the same stick. Same process, different conclusion. A-theism is defined by theism, that which it stands in polar opposition to and is a re-action to. That is why "theism" takes up most of the word "atheism" LOL. Think about the basic meaning of the words.
Theism - Advocating existence of God/s
A-theism - Denying existence of God/s
A-gnosticism - Not knowing either way.
