There are nuances between the labels.
Let's settle this for once and for all...... is atheism a belief, a non-belief or an anti-belief?
by Quillsky 243 Replies latest jw friends
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Essan
You think there are nuances between being "anti-belief" and agnostic? Can you explain.
PS. I edited to add a few details in my post above.
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DT
I think it is unnecessary to define the term atheist. An atheist is just someone who isn't a theist. You can just come up with a good definition of theist and then use atheist to refer to everyone who is excluded by your definition of theist. Yes, this makes atheist a very broad and generic term. This probably helps to explain why atheists get upset when people make broad and stereotypical comments that only apply to a portion of the atheist community.
I think it would be helpful to have a term that refers to the opposite of a theist, something like antitheist. While an atheist simply lacks belief in a god (with or without an accompanying belief in the nonexistence of god), an antitheist would actually believe in the nonexistence of god. I'm sure true antitheists are pretty rare, even though many theists like to portray all atheists as antitheists. (I realise that some definitions imply that all atheists are antitheists, however that is not how people who actually claim to be atheists usually view it. I guess it's fine for theists to use that definition provided they specify that they are using that narrow definition and that most people who claim to be atheists don't have to be offended by what would otherwise be ignorant generalisations.)
The term agnostic can be confusing because it includes some atheists and even, possibly, some theists. For example, I considered myself an agnostic when I was a theist and still consider myself an agnostic now that I'm an atheist. The only groups that are excluded by agnostic are those with absolute faith in either the existence or nonexistence of god.
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cantleave
How can atheism be a belief?
Atheism is an aknowledgement that there is no proof for for the existence of God.
There is no proof for the existence of god, therefore to believe in God requires faith, not to believe in god does not.
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Essan
Cantleave, atheism isn't "an aknowledgement that there is no proof for for the existence of God". That is agnosticism.
Atheism is the opposite of theism - a-theism - it's the denial of the existence of God/s.
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IsaacJ22
As others have said, I don't see why this is so hard either. The only real confusion that makes sense to me is that many people are used to a single definition of the word and can't seem to get that one out of their head. Depending on what dictionaries you use, both the following definitions are technically accurate (as are several more I won't mention):
1) atheists actively disbelieve in God, just as many of us disbelieve that the Society has the "true religion." If asked whether any gods are real, an atheist by this definition must answer, "No. Without question." This seems to be the definition that many people can't let go of. Still, we atheists must remember that it's a valid definition too.
2) atheists are people who do not believe in God, but don't necessarily cross the line into disbelief. You might not believe that vitamin C cures cancer because you haven't seen proof, for instance, but still withold final judgment until proof is offered one way or the other.
In other words, atheists these days see belief in gods as on-off switch. There is no fence, like agnosticism is supposed to be, to sit on. Either you believe or you don't. Disbelief isn't a factor. If you don't believe in any gods--or are simply unconvinced that any gods exist--then we consider you an atheist. That's it, really. The more I talk about it, the more complicated it will seem.
Most atheists don't consider agnosticism to be a fence between theism and atheism. It is something else entirely. An agnostic believes that you can't prove or disprove gods absolutely. But you don't have to have proof to believe or even disbelieve. So you can be an agnostic Christian (believe in God without believing he can be proven or disproven) or an agnostic atheist (not convinced any gods are real, but without believing this can proven either way). This is why defining agnosticism as a middle ground between the two doesn't work very well, at least to me, and it sounds too wishy washy for atheists who have chosen to be bold and "come out" as nonbelievers. So most of us don't like to use it.
Most self proclaimed atheists are actually agnostic atheists these days, also known as weak atheism. These are valid philosophical terms. If you look up "weak atheist" or "agnostic atheism" you will find definitions for them online or in books that discuss it.
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Essan
IsaacJ22, I agree that your definition 2 is how 'Atheist' is often used (or misused) today and that this common usage is now reflected in some definitions which are mirroring what people mean when they use the word 'atheist' rather than what the word actually means and it's definition when it originated. This trend has lead to a lot of needless confusion and essentially rendered many words meaningless, as are the attempted combination labels in your post, IMO. This is shown by the fact that you claim atheism legitimately has both meanings 1 and 2, yet they are quite different. They are different, IMO, because only one of then is legitimate - number 1.
I see it as a kind of 'fast-food' or corporate 'coffee-shop' approach to words, based on what we want things to mean rather than what they do mean: "I'm a Christian-double-decaf-skinny-mochagnostic" Lol. Having chosen a basic label to identify with people try to change the label's original meaning to better suit their preferences as their sense of identity is now bound up with it. Strangely enough, the Society has taken a similar approach to interpreting Scripture, with similar nonsensical results.
As I said earlier, I feel a similar adulterating of meaning has blighted the word "skeptic".
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Super Nova
To be an atheist one has to believe that the universe is either eternal or came from nothing. There is no evidence for either; therefore, atheism is a belief.
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