Yet another post-JW epiphany: The Absurdity of "SERIOUS SIN".

by Open mind 48 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

miseryloveselders

Miseryloveselders, that absolutely does not give you a blank check. That is what is faulty about the JW view of salvation. They think that if we are justified ONLY by faith and not by works that this gives a person a "blank check" to do whatever they wish since they are already saved. This is not the case. A person that does whatever they desire is showing that they have NOT been saved. That is what my point was by saying that holiness is not something that we pursue so that we can be saved. It is a manifestation of our salvation. Good works are manifest because we have been justified by faith ONLY.
How could we ever do enough to please God? We are, in effect, condemned criminals against Him. If I commit a murder and then feed the hungry, heal the sick, and preach about God's kingdom, I am still condemned because of the murder. No matter what "good works" I perform, I cannot get past that murder without punishment.
We are in the same situation. We have been born as violators of Gods law. No matter what good things we do, we are still condemned. However, with Grace, which is a GIFT, Jesus paid for our sins (past, present, and future). If we have been given this gift of salvation then we are compelled to do good works. But the WT reverses this concept completely.
Ok, so Grace doesn't give me a blank check to do whatever I want, no matter how heinous. Let me ask you this then.........does it give me a blank check every now and then to do whatever I want to do, no matter how heinous? I'm already condemned by birth, but Jesus paid for my transgressions. To show my appreciation, I'm compelled to do good works. So I geniunely do good works. However every now and then I just cant help it, I get the urge to do something heinous, and I act on it. Am I off the hook, based upon my faith and the good works I'm compelled to do?
brotherdan

misery, we do that anyway as sinners. We do what we want regardless of the consequences. That is sin. But when we have true faith we do not pursue sin. Again, the WT reasoning is backwards. More emphasis is placed on the good works than on the faith.
A person that USES the gift of grace to justify wrongdoings has not really been saved. The bible speaks of the "evidence of grace". (Acts 11:23) Read Acts 15:11. It is ONLY by grace that we are saved. The Bible constantly talks about grace being a GIFT. Can you earn a gift? If you go to work, is your paycheck a gift? No, it's something that was paid to you due to your work.
But grace is not like that. It's something that is freely given to us. Read Romans 5:20. It says that "where sin increased, grace increased all the more." This does not give us license to sin. It does, in fact, have the opposite effect. It causes us to want to avoid sin.
Terry

Terry, grace does not destroy Gods justice and purity. I don't know why I am arguing this with you since you are a bitter bitter non-believer. But regardless, because of God's justice and purity we as sinfull humans could never be acceptable to Him. His justice would not allow it.
Brother Dan entones: Terry, grace does not destroy Gods justice and purity.
And then immediately contradicts himself with: because of God's justice and purity we as sinfull humans could never be acceptable to Him.
And Brother Dan even reveals the reason for his own contradiction: His justice would not allow it.
Brother Dan then tries to reconcile the logical absurdity of a Just and Pure God magically accepting sinful humanity by placing the burden on linguistic manipulation!
The problem is when people try to apply their OWN sense of justice and sense of fairness to God's justice and fairness
WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?
1.We are applying the Bible definition of Justice and Purity to God's pre-Grace and post-Grace actions toward humans. (Perfect standard of behavior and thought.)
2.We identify a CHANGE (dissonance) (First God kills humans for sin and then, arbitrarily later Forgives the same sins.)
3.We call attention to the violation of God's OWN personal standard (Sin=Punishment=Death vs Sin=Grace=removal of punishment standard)
Brother Dan, the problem with your response is that you AREN'T THINKING about what you are talking about.
You are blindly parroting something inculcated into your belief system so that you cannot even logically discuss it.
The problem here is not my bitterness. As far as I know I'm not bitter. I'm sometimes exasperated with the knee-jerk Pavlovian non-thinking defenses to reasonable questions, however.
Such as what?
1.Why did God once kill humans for sin if later he would forgive humans for sin?
2.Being "elect" doesn't mean anything to the above argument: i.e. those who are destroyed were planned destructions from the beginning!
3. A standard of conduct: purity cannot be imposed on anyone previously designed to be destroyed! It would not apply. You can't demand that a midget be tall or a circle be square. That would make God a monster for damning the midget for non-tallness while rewarding tall people for their birthright!
I mean to focus attention on the ridiculous illogical stupidty of the GRACE "explanation" by pious parroting of bromides.
DOES GRACE ILLUSTRATE JUSTICE AND PURITY BY GOD?
or, rather...does it paint the Almighty as a monster of dual standards of behavior (Old Testament vs New Testament)?
Why accept a monstrous demonstration of corruption in God's own standards by laying off the blame on unwitting humans (pre-ordained to destruction?)
Blaming a rape victim for the rape is about as evil!
brotherdan

God did not arbitrarily and "magically" decide to apply grace. When you take the sacrifice of Jesus out of the picture, it does crash down. Christ was the covering sacrifice that was not available to the Israellites before him. By their sacrifices, they only had a shadow of the forgiveness that was to come through Jesus.
I'm not blindly parroting anyone. I was not taught the concept of grace growing up. If I am parroting anything, it is the Bible.
snowbird

I was prepared to attempt an answer to MLE's scenario, but I feel the Apostle Paul answered so much better than any of us in Romans chapter 6.
From The Message Bible:
Romans 6:15-18 So, since we're out from under the old tyranny, does that mean we can live any old way we want? Since we're free in the freedom of God, can we do anything that comes to mind? Hardly. You know well enough from your own experience that there are some acts of so-called freedom that destroy freedom. Offer yourselves to sin, for instance, and it's your last free act. But offer yourselves to the ways of God and the freedom never quits. All your lives you've let sin tell you what to do. But thank God you've started listening to a new master, one whose commands set you free to live openly in his freedom!
19 I'm using this freedom language because it's easy to picture. You can readily recall, can't you, how at one time the more you did just what you felt like doing—not caring about others, not caring about God—the worse your life became and the less freedom you had? And how much different is it now as you live in God's freedom, your lives healed and expansive in holiness?
20-21 As long as you did what you felt like doing, ignoring God, you didn't have to bother with right thinking or right living, or right anything for that matter. But do you call that a free life? What did you get out of it? Nothing you're proud of now. Where did it get you? A dead end.
22-23 But now that you've found you don't have to listen to sin tell you what to do, and have discovered the delight of listening to God telling you, what a surprise! A whole, healed, put-together life right now, with more and more of life on the way! Work hard for sin your whole life and your pension is death. But God's gift is real life, eternal life, delivered by Jesus, our Master.
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Amen.
Syl
miseryloveselders

Syl, this is a men's only discussion, don't you have something to cook or clean?
snowbird

MLE, when I was fully in, by their body language and facial expressions, elders used to say that very thing.
No-account varmints!
Syl
miseryloveselders

LOL Syl. Ohh brother.....
Ok then, BrotherDan, and Syl, the more I'm looking at your responses, the more I'm under the impression, that your definition of Grace is just cute substitute word for Ransom, or fulfillment of the law, or perpetual sacrifice, etc.. So pretty much you still believe in Works per say, but the Works will be the genuine result of your showing appreciation for what God and Christ have done in your behalf, right? Whereas you believe the JW's view of works and some other groups too, believe that works are needed for salvation. Which by the way isn't entirely true, as JWs feel it has to be from the heart also. At this point, I'm thinking to myself, what are people arguing about when it comes to Works vs. Grace? We pretty much agree with each other.
Terry by the way, I love the way you question it all. If God exists, and this is how His justice has to be manifest, then the entire human history has been one big ping pong game of what used to be acceptable to God, and whats currently acceptable.
brotherdan

misery, grace is not the same as the ransom (although the ransom is how grace is possible). And works are not merely showing an appreciation towards the ransom.
JWs do not believe in current salvation. They think it is something future. Applied grace means that our salvation IS sure NOW. Whereas JWs believe that if you endure MAYBE you will be saved. They try to tear down current salvation by calling it "once saved, always saved". They use the scripture about "working out your salvation" as if by works you will get salvation. What working out your salvation REALLY means is showing that you have been saved by your works through faith.
John Macarthur has a GREAT series on the doctrine of grace. If you read or listen to it then you will see that the doctrine is VERY different from what the WT teaches. Here's a link to the page
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermon+Series/280_The-Doctrines-of-Grace
Please read or listen to these lectures, and then tell me what you think. I'd be really interested to know what you think about it.
snowbird

Let me put it this way: By God's Grace, I don't have to do a dad-gummed thing.
However, because of that Grace, I manifest the fruitage of the Spirit which compels me to do good toward all.
Grace and Holy Spirit work in tandem.
Hallelujah!
Syl

Yet another post-JW epiphany: The Absurdity of "SERIOUS SIN".

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