Yet another post-JW epiphany: The Absurdity of "SERIOUS SIN".

by Open mind 48 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  miseryloveselders

  Alright, so let me make sure I have this correctly..................... I'm just going to copy and paste bits and pieces of your posts. You're concise enough that I don't think I have to fear taking anything you posted out of context. So lets see................

  A person that does whatever they desire is showing that they have NOT been saved. That is what my point was by saying that holiness is not something that we pursue so that we can be saved. It is a manifestation of our salvation. Good works are manifest because we have been justified by faith ONLY.

  A person that USES the gift of grace to justify wrongdoings has not really been saved. The bible speaks of the "evidence of grace". (Acts 11:23) Read Acts 15:11. It is ONLY by grace that we are saved. The Bible constantly talks about grace being a GIFT. Can you earn a gift? If you go to work, is your paycheck a gift? No, it's something that was paid to you due to your work.

  But grace is not like that. It's something that is freely given to us. Read Romans 5:20. It says that "where sin increased, grace increased all the more." This does not give us license to sin. It does, in fact, have the opposite effect. It causes us to want to avoid sin.

  Applied grace means that our salvation IS sure NOW. What working outyour salvation REALLY means is showing that you have been saved by your works through faith.

  Here's the part where you confuse me, in stating that Grace doesn't give us a license to sin. When I hear the word license, I think legally permissable. A license to carry a firearm, or to drive. To practice law or medicine. So you're telling me that grace doesn't license me to do whatever it is that I want, but it causes me to "want to avoid sin." There's a difference between be licensed to carry a firearm, and not being licensed but none the less packing heat under my shirt to avoid detection and risk arrest.

  You're saying Grace means my salvation is sure. Positive. Done deal. Signed, sealed, delivered, Grace is yours. At the same time you're saying, I'll want to avoid sin to show people that I am saved. Ok I get it. But does that still mean, since I'm saved because of Grace, if I slip up and do something heinous even though I really wanted to avoid doing something heinous, I'm still saved by Grace. I mean I really didn't want to do something heinous, ya know I really wanted to avoid it as you put it. But, I messed up and did it anyway, am I still saved?
• 

  snowbird

  I realize your post is directed to Bro Dan, but one word: R E P E N T A N C E.

  Syl
• 

  brotherdan

  Romans 6:1,2 - What shall we say then? Shall we go on sinning, so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

  Romans 6:14,15 - For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

  Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

  You are making some good points that actually are answered very clearly in the Bible. I directed you to the John Macarthur series on grace, and he talks about these very issues. Here is a specific sermon that directly speaks about sin and it's application to grace.

  http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/90-270_The-Perseverance-of-the-Saints-Part-1
• 

  Billy the Ex-Bethelite

  The most serious sin in JWland is to question the authenticity of the Governing Body and their appointed representatives.
• 

  JWoods

  The most serious sin in JWland is to question the authenticity of the Governing Body and their appointed representatives.

  The most serious sin in the Garden of Eden was eating a pomegranite. This was an automatic death penalty without the possibility of appeal.
• 

  brotherdan

  I found a good scripture for you misery. John 10:27-29. It shows that once we receive eternal life through the grace of Jesus Christ, it is impossible to take it away.

  It says: " My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me and I give eternal life to them and they shall never perish and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand, I and the Father are one."

  Macarthur summed the matter of our sinning while still being saved perfectly. He said, " It does not mean that Christians don't fail seriously and severely in their Christian lives. We do. They do not completely nor finally fail. Fail, yes. Fail severely, yes. Fail repeatedly, yes. Fail completely, no. Fail finally, no."
• 

  miseryloveselders

  found a good scripture for you misery. John 10:27-29. It shows that once we receive eternal life through the grace of Jesus Christ, it is impossible to take it away.

  It says: " My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me and I give eternal life to them and they shall never perish and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand, I and the Father are one."

  Macarthur summed the matter of our sinning while still being saved perfectly. He said, " It does not mean that Christians don't fail seriously and severely in their Christian lives. We do. They do not completely nor finally fail. Fail, yes. Fail severely, yes. Fail repeatedly, yes. Fail completely, no. Fail finally, no."

  So if it's impossible for eternal life to be taken away, because of Grace, does that mean I have a blank check to do heinous crimes? Macarthur stated we never completely fail, we never finally fail. So I'll always be a sinner, I'll always fall short of perfection. Somedays I may fall short enough that I may commit a heinous act, BUT, I'll never fall completely, nor fail completely because of God's Grace.
• 

  flipper

  " Per the JW's, ALL sin is potentially a capital offense. " Yeah, except child abuse and spousal abuse. People get appointed as elders and ministerial servants with THOSE sins. It's actually one of the qualifications
• 

  garyneal

  Somedays I may fall short enough that I may commit a heinous act, BUT, I'll never fall completely, nor fail completely because of God's Grace.

  I look at it this way, some of the most notable Bible characters also committed heinous acts. David, Saul of Tarsus (Paul), Solomon. If God's amazing grace is sufficient for them surely it is sufficient for fallible people alive today.
• 

  brotherdan

  We are talking about the elect here. The TRUE Christian. Not someone that just professes to be a Christian and uses it as an excuse to sin. Those people show by their actions that they never were saved. Can a Christian sin severely or as you say "heinously"? Possibly. But when you are full of the Holy Spirit and you let Him guide your life you are far less likely to commit such a sin. Like Paul said in Romans 6:2, we died to sin. We don't let it lead us anymore.

  But keep in mind, this is describing the saved Christian. It's describing the Christian that asked for faith and salvation through Jesus Christ. These are the ones that were chosen from before the founding of the world. Notice Eph 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love.