CD - I like your advice.
Brother Dan - as I implied earlier, if there was hope for me, there is hope for anyone.
Bonnie
Never Wake Up
by brotherdan 97 Replies latest jw friends
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VoidEater
They will be attracted to the parent who stays calm, reasonable, and doesn't scare them or make them feel sad.
They will also be attracted to the parent that doesn't villify the other.
Remain true to your heart, express yourself honestly, and in terms of yourself - not in comparison, not to attack, just to express what is true for you.
Sleep is seductive and has its charms. Being awake can be bliss when you are grounded in your own truth.
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GrandmaJones
Brother Dan
I think you need to be "depressed" because you have been "stumbled". Depression is a good excuse to miss some of the meetings. "You just can't be with people" because you mentally can't cope right now. When she asked what has "stumbled" you, then pick something that difficult to argue about. Take the blood issue, for example---but DON'T tell her how you really feel. Ask questions. Tell her you are confused over the fact that we can take "fractions" and explain how "fractions" you think, is blood. Tell her this( I am using blood, but whatever you think is something she will question) is "stumbling you". Be patient, see a doctor, get a prescription, tell her it isn't helping. Don't take the medicine. or maybe do if this will help. Then work subtly, slowly....After all, your children are at stake. I don't mean to throw you on a guilt trip, but you can't let your strong feelings to overtake you and you lose the opportunity to make a difference in their lives. They will be poisoned regarding you if you leave under these circumstances. I know from experience that being "depressed" and "stumbled" is very effective with your loved ones as well as the congregation. You will get at least a little sympathy from both. You won't be blamed. We gets talks from the platform, articles in the watchtower, etc. Look up the Awake article on "Mood Disorders" on the WT cd, and give it to your wife. Tell her you haven't felt safe enough to talk about it. This will buy you a lot of time, Brother Dan, and keep the pressure off you, and the level of animosity down.
Just my humble opinion, but you mustn't subsitute that for your own. Only YOU know and understand your situation.
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SweetBabyCheezits
Damn, tough situation. My wife was really passionate about being loyal to Jehovah but she had (has) a different personality than your wife, methinks. We argued about belief regularly but I don't recall her ever using f-bombs. She probably called me a jerk when I was being a jerk, though. And yet somehow five years later we're leaving this BS together.
Remember this: Hordes of people leave cults every year. Most of the folks on this forum are evidence. Be positive.
Try to appeal to her reason. Get through to her that "it is only error, not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." (Thomas Paine) Help her understand that's a big reason why so many religions continue to propagate, because kids are taught to accept parents' faith, not to question it. A lack of questioning their own cherished beliefs (lack of critical thinking) makes people dogmatically stand by what they believe, even when presented with evidence to the contrary. Ask her if she recognizes that in OTHER faiths. If she does, ask her if she thinks it's inconsistent to tell others to scrutinize their faith without scrutinizing one's own.
If she cannot allow herself to question her precious Society, circumventing prejudice is one way to approach it but at this point it'll be hard. JW defenses are so touchy if they've already been tipped off by your "apostate" tendencies.
I know I've mentioned this before and don't know if it was helpful or if you even tried it... Could you plead with her to put herself in the shoes of a Mormon wife/mother who started becoming aware of inconsistencies and doctrinal problems within the church? Mention that a Mormon wife probably sees the benefits of their faith: the love, the unity, the strong families, high morals, etc.. (things that will relate to JW propaganda as well)... but what if she realized she could no longer conscientiously put faith in Joseph Smith's revelation, among other things? What would she do? Continue along as if nothing was wrong? Go with the flow to keep family and social ties intact? Or seek truth free from bias?
Ask her how a Mormon who was raised as such could possibly wake up to the reality that their beloved church (and therefore faith) is wrong. Might it not start with logic and reason? Either way, this Mormon's journey out will be blocked by well-intentioned family and friends who sincerely believe that the wife is making a terrible mistake. Mormon elders will try to encourage her to rethink her steps and they will rationalize away every doubt she presents. The similarities are INCREDIBLE.
Your wife knows the LDS church is wrong. So perhaps she would be willing to look at some ex-Mormon experiences.
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon599.htm
Or even the similarities between Mormon control and JW control.
http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/58411/Use-proper-sources.html
That's one possible technique but only you would know if it's a good fit for your wife.
Best wishes for you and your family, BD.
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brotherdan
Ok, so I know that everyone is against me emailing her back. But I wrote one anyway, and haven't sent it yet. Could you guys read through it and let me know if there is anything that you would change if you were to send it? Here it is:
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I do respect you. And I didn't mean to sound insulting when I was talking about mind control. Like I said last night, mind control is something that is used by everyone. Advertisers and marketers use forms of it. They try and get us to think that we NEED their products. But DESTRUCTIVE mind control is something very different. It is the process of being told that if we DO NOT buy into their product or way of thinking, then we are condemned to death. The society has said that they ONLY way to know God is to come to THEM. It's very different from what Jesus said. He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." (John 14:6). Yet we call the Watchtower society "The Truth". We must go to THEM to get to Jesus. That doesn't work according to the Bible. We ask, "So how long have you been in the truth?" And that doesn't mean, how long have you known Jesus. It means, how long have you been a part of THIS organization?
I never said that the people in the hall are horrid liars! I think there are ALOT of wonderful people there. I think that they have been lied to and are being lied to daily about many different things. It's just that you don't KNOW what has been done and what is being done. You don't know the extent of the lies that have gone on. I personally can't know about these things and just try to pretend that everything is ok anymore. It's not ok. It's far from ok.
Molestation is out of control in this organization. It's out of control everywhere, but the reason it is SO prevalent in this organization is that the policy in place protects the abuser instead of the victim. The unbiblical policies that have been put into place in many other areas have lead to the deaths of thousands. It's lead to the guilt of thousands. It's destroyed families and lives.
Take for example organ transplant. It was forbidden by the society to get an organ transplant for many many many years. That lead to the deaths of so many people. They called it "cannibalism" to receive a needed organ transplant. So people died because of the decision of some mens opinions that had NOTHING to do with the Bible. The 11/15/67 WT said "Removing the organ and replacing it directly with an organ from another human, this is simply a shortcut. Those who submit to such operations are thus living off the flesh of another human. That is cannibalistic. However, in allowing man to eat animal flesh Jehovah God did not grant permission for humans to try to perpetuate their lives by cannibalistically taking into their bodies human flesh, whether chewed or in the form of whole organs or body parts taken from others."
Hemophilliacs were denied medication because of claims that they had blood in them (which was later proven false...but the policy was not overturned for many years). Same with vaccinations. They called vaccinations (during the time of polio and small pox) "the serum of the devil." This is a quote from the Awake of October 1921: "Vaccination never prevented anything and never will, and is the most barbarous practice .. Use your rights as American citizens to forever abolish the devilish practice of vaccination." The February 1931 Awake said, "Quite likely there is some connection between the violation of human blood [vaccines] and the spread of demonism.. sexual immorality .. Vaccination has never saved a human life. It does not prevent smallpox."
The health dangers are not the only thing that they have done to cause the deaths of so many faithful people. The situation and letters written back and forth between the society and Malawi and Mexico is shocking to me. They carried on a double standard, letting brothers in Malawi die and watch their wives and children raped and killed because of not admitting to being a Malawi citizen, while in Mexico they were allowing brothers to bribe officials for certifications that said they had served in the military for 2 years. If you were to read the back and forth letters from the branches to the society in brooklyn, you would be disgusted too. They are scanned and presented in Ray Franz's book, "Crises of Conscience".
You said last night that anything you find online can be edited. While I can agree with that, what has made the biggest difference in this whole issue to me is what THEY THEMSELVES have said. There is no need to create lies. They've written and done enough things on their own that when viewed as a WHOLE make me see that they are not the organization that I always thought they were, and what I wanted them to be.
You know that I have not been personally effected by things done in the cong. I haven't been "stumbled". What I HAVE done is research and try to get rid of what hurts my conscience. And the answers that have come have not been good.
I told you that I've prayed for Jehovah to lead me to HIS truth, no matter where it takes me. I'm not afraid to go there. And what I've seen is that MEN have taken over and assigned themselves in a place that belongs ONLY to Jesus. If you notice, I have not quoted from or referred to any so-called apostate sources. It all is from the society's own mouth. And the lies continue today. The new DVD is chock FULL of lies and misrepresentation. I could barely stand to watch it all. I had just finished reading through CT Russell's and Rutherford's books where they condemned black people and said that whites were the chosen race by God. They said that in the New System all blacks would have their skin turned white. Russell practiced occultism and many other strange demonic practices. But these are not mentioned and are glossed over in the DVD. Rutherford even believed that after Russell died, he was being used to communicate spiritual truths to him. How could you get any more demonic?
I'm sorry for the long email. But I just need you to see that there ARE REASONS why I'm disturbed and have a guilty conscience of being part of an organization that has such a sordid past. I have NOTHING against the people in the hall or any of the elders. I think that they don't know to the extent that they are being lied to and controlled by a small group of men in Brooklyn.
I DO NOT want to put "OUR SON" in the middle of this. I don't want him to think that daddy is going to die at Armageddon because he does not go to the meetings. I don't want you to feel like you are raising our kids on your own either. I care for the spirituality of you and our kids. I wouldn't be standing so firm about this if I didn't. I love you and our kids with all of my heart. That is why I hope you see the reality of things before it's too late and something bad happens to force the issue. I am totally convinced that if you did research into the organization like I have you would come to the same conclusion. I actually think that you know this too, and it scares you. I've gotten through the terrifying part. I think Jehovah has given me peace to deal with this and recognize that what I was taught since birth just was an illusion that didn't exist.
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undercover
Do NOT send this...
If an elder gets ahold of this, you'll be up on apostacy charges faster'n you can say Judge Rutherford...
The good thing about typing all that though is it put your thoughts down where you can review and refine. You can still use a lot of what you wrote, just save it for when you TALK. Never put in writing to others criticism about the WTS if you don't want to get the elders involved.
What you really need to do is take a step back and calm down. She's upset, you're upset. No point in trying to hash this out while nerves are so raw. Let things calm down...let her calm down. When she lightens up...and I bet she does... you can discuss this on much calmer level. And don't try to solve the entire issue in one sit-down. It ain't gonna happen. Pick one thing that concerns you, study up on it and discuss that one issue. Don't let it veer off to this or that. Keep it simple, keep it focused. And don't lose your temper and if she starts to, end the discussion then. Time to let it go until later.
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Mad Sweeney
Brother Dan, talking to a JW about mind control AT ALL is absolutely pointless. Talking to a JW about flip-flops, false prophecies, and dangerous doctrines AT ALL is absolutely pointless. Any criticism of the Borg and the cult personality puts up the barriers and nothing else gets through.
You have to stop using failed and counterproductive methods to save your family.
Your email breaks all the rules Hassan lays out for getting through to the genuine personality. Don't send it. Here's what you should send:
"Dear __________,
I am sorry that I hurt you with my words. A long time ago we fell in love. We have produced two beautiful children together. My ONLY goal for the present and future is your happiness and the happiness of the kids. I am going to stop criticizing the organization that obviously means so much to you. You know me. I would never try to turn you and the kids against Jehovah. I love you.
Love,
Brother Dan"
Now, she might suspect that you are BSing her. Or she may assume this letter means that you will start going back to meetings and be a good little Dub again. Neither are true. But do not cross that bridge until she brings you there.
If she thinks you're full of it, prove her wrong by being a good dad, kind and gentle husband, and avoiding discussion of religion at all for awhile. A GOOD WHILE, not just a couple days.
If she thinks your letter implies that you're getting back into the Borg Cube, then calmly tell her that no, like her you have to live according to your Bible-trained conscience. You will keep your promise not to badmouth the organization to her, but you cannot in good conscience follow it any longer.
There's a start for you. Stick to the advice of experts. You've read Releasing the Bonds, right? You can't argue with the cult personality. So don't.
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brotherdan
Thanks undercover and mad sweeny.
I was so tempted to send that email. But instead, I wrote one similar to what you wrote, MS. I AM done with the meetings. I can't do it any longer. I haven't done good enough in applying Hasaans book. I need to read it again and then get the sequel. My wife actually said last night that she would read those since they don't talk about Witnesses. Should I try to follow her up with that? She absolutely refuses to read anything directly about the WT...
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SweetBabyCheezits
Well written piece, BS.
Based on what my wife told me helped her, perhaps you could go a step further and pressure your wife to put herself in an uncomfortable or difficult situation that tests her faith. It needs to reach her heart! I'd do that by expanding a bit on the organ transplant issue:
Ask her how she'd feel if you guys were alive and had kids back in the 70s, and one of them needed a liver transplant in, say, 1979.
Use a specific child and make sure she puts your suffering child's face in this hypothetical. She must visualize it for the effect.
Suppose both of you upheld the Society's perspective that it would constitute cannibalism and so you rejected the transplant and your child died. Get her to think about the funeral and the pain she would feel at burying her own kid.
Then ask how she would feel when the Society shared their “new light” regarding transplants in The Watchtower, March 15, 1980, p.31?
If you can, get her to read it in front of you, out loud. She has to really connect on this. (Interestingly, the WT warns that apostates will try to appeal to the emotions. Um, yeah, it's called reaching someone's heart, dumbasses.)
Here's what should happen: If she has a heart and puts herself in that situation, she should realise that article was a crude, disgusting attempt to pawn off responsibility for the deaths of innocent transplant objectors by insinuating it was always, more or less, a conscience matter. In explaining why some may have refused transplants in the past, it said in part, “Some Christians might feel that taking into their bodies any tissue or body part from another human is cannibalistic.”
Yes, they “might” feel that way because THAT IS WHAT THE WATCHTOWER ARTICLE FLAT-OUT TOLD THEM. (Interestingly, the articles written to smooth over the 1975 fiasco – WT July 16, 1976 and March 15, 1980 - were similarly evasive in taking full responsibility, using very passive sentence structure to redirect attention.)
Today, a reasoning person should be able to read that March 15, 1980 Questions From Readers and compare with the view on blood transfusions: like organ transplants, blood transfusions should be a personal decision, not a doctrinal decision.
I reasoned this with my wife and, while it took much more for her to break free, she's said that it helped her quite a bit. But she'd always had a weak spot for the kids and worried that her faith wasn't strong enough for the blood issue when it came to them.
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brotherdan
Hey Cheeze,
Yeah I remember you telling me to go about it from the Mormon perspective. I think it's good and I even added some of that to my email (that I didn't send) before sending the "nice" one.
I guess she just has to be ready to see it if she is going to see it at all. I just hope she sees it before it's too late and something bad happens to her or my kids. If that were to happen I would never forgive myself for NOT dragging them out kicking and screaming.