Understanding Revelation (According to the JWs)
by brotherdan 96 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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brotherdan
Wait wait wait,
djeggnog:
That which you read in Revelation chapters 8, 9 and 11 speaks primarily to a "third" of the earth
Please elaborate...
I've never heard of this in the "Climax" book or in Revelation.
A third of the earth was Christian in the 1900's?
How do you know that a third of the LITERAL EARTH is not spoken of as being destroyed in the tribulation? Before Armageddon? What is the scripture you can use to establish your timeline. What is the difference between the "sea" and the "land" and the "trees"?
Please use hermeneutical proofs PLEASE. I am only interested in an intelligent discussion.
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Soldier77
Wasn't there a post recently about Armageddon or as it is Har-Magedon being a literal location in Israel? An actual mountain. Isn't Revelation specifically talking about the 1st Century destruction of Jerusalem? And wasn't John on crack or something while he was writing this? Or LSD... one of those...
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Ding
Come on, BD, you know that in Watchtowerland nothing in the book of Revelation is literal except the number 144,000.
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brotherdan
Wasn't there a post recently about Armageddon or as it is Har-Magedon being a literal location in Israel? An actual mountain. Isn't Revelation specifically talking about the 1st Century destruction of Jerusalem?
This is a common theory. But there are too many things that can't be answered to suggest that it was ALL talking about 1st century Jerusalem. There are too many reasons to think that Rev was written AFTER 70ce.
But yes, Har-Mageddon means "Mount of Migeddo" (?sp) It's a real place. Most theologians believe that the location is symbolic, although it COULD be literal. The "Left Behind" books had much to say about this being literal. But of course, those were fiction.
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HintOfLime
Straying off-topic, I know - but I think Penn and Teller pretty much summed up the value of prophecies like Revelation and Nostradamus's work in their episode about the End of the World:
"This is an Ancient Latin Quatrain that really predicts so much that was to happen" (Penn points to blackboard covered in Latin text)
"'The wheels of the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round...' Now the wheels on the bus represent Napoleons's army - or 'bus'. 1812.. marching all around Europe, circling Prussia, invading Russia, and then '...all through the town...' of Moscow.
'The money on the bus goes clink clink clink...' Here money of course represents gold transported on the bus - Manchester Liverpool Railway - 'clink clink clinking' in the safe transport. The next 'clink clink clink' is clearly the key stolen by Edward Pierce - 1855 - when he masterminded the great train robbery, and listen to this: 'clink clink clink.' The sound of the cell doors closing on Pierce and his two accomplices - predicted right here. The recovered money of course 'clink clink clink'.. back into the bank - a story retold 'all through the town'.... of London England. Right there, clear.
'The driver on the bus says move on back, move on back, move on back'. Ah hah! December 1955, James L. Blake the driver on this bus told Rosa Parks to 'move on back!' Repeating the command: 'Move on back, move on back, move on back' to each of three other black passengers in a row 'all through the town' of Montgomery, Alabama..
'The mommy on the bus says shh shh shh, shh shh shh, shh shh shh.' Here the mommy is Richard Nixon shushing his staff as Watergate threatens his presidency, shushing himself before the secret oval office tape recorders, paying out shush money, and the second mommy down here at the bottom - Rosmary Woods - shushing 17 1/2 minutes of taped conversations...."
His point of course was that you can take ANYTHING - any writing, and 'apply it' to real-world events as "prophecy in hindsight". It is trivial to do, and absolute meaningless. Because you can apply it to ANYTHING, it can mean ANYTHING, so ultimately it means NOTHING.
I'm thinking of a sentence. I've replaced each word (each concept) in the sentence with another word or concept: "The king ate bread on his throne." What was my original sentence?
The correct answer is: "There's no way to know. You didn't provide enough information."
That's what the book of Revelation is. "I have a message for you... but I'm not going to tell you what it is. I'll replace each concept in my message with a 'symbol' - but I won't provide required information as to what each symbol ultimately represents."
To think that a 'wise creator' didn't grasp how utterly useless this sort of 'encoded message' is - or to think he would ever employ such a form of "guesswork communication" is absolutely asinine.
- Lime
PS: Oh, and my sentence was "Colonel Mustard (The King) killed Mr. Body (ate) with the Rope (bread) in the Conservatory (on his throne)."
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HintOfLime
Oh, and regarding the trumpet blasts being 'JW conventions': Of course, the text can apply with equal merit and uselessness to just about anything.
But for them to think it applies to past convensions where 'old light' (or 'modern falsehoods') were proclaimed - LOL. Damn, what an ego.
- Lime
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djeggnog
@brotherdan:
Please elaborate...
No.
I've never heard of this in the "Climax" book or in Revelation.
Ok. And...?
A third of the earth was Christian in the 1900's?
No, a third of the earth wasn't Christian, but a third of it professed to be Christian in the 1900s. Those statistical numbers that were included in my post are little things called "facts." You may not be able to help yourself, but there really is no need for cynicism. I'm sure you know how to conduct research on such things in order to verify what the facts truly are.
How do you know that a third of the LITERAL EARTH is not spoken of as being destroyed in the tribulation? Before Armageddon?
It isn't possible for me to take this question of yours seriously. Adding "[b]efore Armageddon?" as if you had asked a serious question was unhelpful.
What is the scripture you can use to establish your timeline[?]
Now if you were asking me what year "the Lord's day" (Revelation 1:10) began -- the "Lord's day" began in the year 1914, the year in which the words of this prophecy were foretold to come to pass, I'd think you were just joking around, but you asking me about a "timeline." What "timeline"?
What is the difference between the "sea" and the "land" and the "trees"?
I want to assume that before asking me this question (regarding a third of the "sea," the "land" and the "trees") that you did take a stab at trying to figure out what these things meant, since in my previous post, I recall stating that this "third" meant Christendom, but I thought that mention of the "sea" and "a third of the rivers" that had been turned into poisonous "wormwood" from which many of the men died (Revelation 8:10, 11) that affected a third of the "waters" or the "sea" would have suggested to you peoples, nations (Revelation 17:15). Since you already knew that the third referred to Christendom, then it should follow that "a third of the trees" would be Christendom's leaders, and "all the green vegetation" (Revelation 8:7) are Christendom's supporters.
You ask about "land," but there is no mention of "land" here. I don't know, but perhaps you meant to ask me something else, but in what way would you imagine the trees and vegetation were "burned up" by the judgment message represented by the trumpet blast of the first angel?
Please use hermeneutical proofs PLEASE. I am only interested in an intelligent discussion.
What do you mean? This is all hermeneutics, or what exactly do you think the word "hermeneutical" means? As for that "intelligent discussion" in which you are interested in having, you're not ready. I think filling rat roles (pounding sand) would be a much better endeavor for you to pursue. Having at least some knowledge of what the other 65 canonical books teach would be helpful before you take on trying to understand what things you read in the book of Revelation. Then, you might be in a position to tackle the Revelation--It's Grand Climax at Hand! book. IMO, this topic is way over your head.
@djeggnog
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Listener
Djeggnog.
How do you know that these trumpets prophecy only pertains to the 1/3 that claim they are christians? What about all the other false religions that bow down to all sorts of God's? Christian identify Jesus' existance (now or to come) but only form part of the total of believers of false religion.
Wasn't this very narrow minded of the GB not to identify the curse that would also be upon all other religions and worshipers of false gods?
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Listener
If I understand the Organization they have taught how prophecies quite often have more than one fulfillment and it wouldn't be any surprise that they say new light has shown that this trumpet prophecy was fulfilled as they say currently but that it will be fullfilled again.
For instance, it's like the prophecies that were spoken by Jesus and his apostles such as the destruction of Jerusalem. It was fullfilled in its destruction but is to be fullfilled again.
