The NWT words it like this: 10 By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet, PSac, the JW would say God inspired John to see events of the Lord's day...which (according to them) is 1914...showing him events of the end times, which (according to them) began in 1914.
Understanding Revelation (According to the JWs)
by brotherdan 96 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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brotherdan
The problem, as Psac pointed out, is that he was given messages to give to the church in HIS OWN DAY. To say that he was in 1914 and then back in his own day and then back in 1914 again...it's not hermeneutically sound. Even a 12 year old would be able to see the fallacy of this...
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isaacaustin
I agree. My wife tries to say (as most JWs would) multiple fulfillments...which is not a very logical answer to give.
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djeggnog
@Listener:
How do you know that these trumpets prophecy only pertains to the 1/3 that claim they are christians?
I did say that the prophecy at Revelation chapters 8, 9 and 11 pertains to a 1/3 of the world that profess to be Christians, namely "Christendom, but if you are asking me how it is I know this to be true, there are too many things that have convinced me that this is the part of the world to which these seven trumpet blasts refer. In my post to @brotherdan, I made reference to a commentary published by Jehovah's Witnesses on the book of Revelation:
Then, you might be in a position to tackle the Revelation--[Its] Grand Climax at Hand! book. IMO, this topic is way over your head.
This book is not an easy read for someone without fundamental knowledge of Bible, but I suppose you, too, could read the book, or that portion of it that comments on just Revelation chapters 8, 9 and 11, and I suppose with what other things with which you are already familiar in the Bible, you might then come to appreciate the meaning of the seven trumpet blasts. I'm not a Bible answer guy, but someone that merely shares with others what things I have learned the Bible teaches.
And quite frankly, @Listener, it makes no difference how I know what things I have come to know since you have to know that your salvation is not based upon what things I know. If you don't know God or if you don't obey the good news about the Lord Jesus Christ, then you and many of those just like you that the Bible describes as "unbelievers" are -- bottom-line -- going to perish. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9) In order that you do not fail to understand the point I am making here, the Bible gives credit to Satan, "the god of this system of things," the unseen "ruler of this world," for keeping unbelievers like yourself spiritually blind. (2 Corinthians 4:4; John 16:11) As a matter of fact, anyone that makes himself or herself a friend of the world, makes himself or herself a friend of Satan's and an enemy of God's, and this is why during "the conclusion of the system of things" folks desirous of being saved from God's wrath are separating themselves from the world, separating themselves from those who are in a state of spiritual darkness and alienated from the life that belongs to God according to God's will because of their being in a state of ignorance about the Christ. (James 4:4; Matthew 13:49; Ephesians 4:18, 20-24) In this thread alone it is clear to me that there many contributors to it that were formerly Jehovah's Witnesses and no part of the world that have returned to the weak and beggarly things of the world, and most of them are actually delighted over their having taken the course of deflection that they have taken in having rejoined the world, except they are understandably unsettled in their minds as they welcome more and more of the blind into the mental darkness in which they now live and thrive. (Galatians 4:9)
Note that I say "most of them" for there are some here on this forum that I know are never going to be able to come back into the light of truth, and only those who are blind just like them will be the ones to mourn for them when they die, for Jehovah neither mourns nor takes delight in the death of someone wicked, He being desirous that the wicked turning back from their wickedness so that they might keep living. (Luke 6:39; Ezekiel 18:23) Since it is an impossibility to revive to repentance those persons here that esteem the value of Jesus' blood as ordinary, those of the dead that mourn such ones will accordingly be the ones to bury their dead, while the living will mourn those dying that never came into a knowledge of the truth since these "children of the resurrection" will be given the same opportunity to put faith in Jesus' ransom that those of the dead rejected contemptuously in this life. (Hebrew 6:4-6; 10:26-29; Luke 20:36; Acts 24:15)
What about all the other false religions that bow down to all sorts of [Gods]? Christian identify Jesus' [existence] (now or to come) but only form part of the total of believers of false religion.
The Bible is clear on this, the entire world empire of false religion will be destroyed, which is why those that are still a part of Babylon are being urged to get out of Babylon, if they do not wish to become a recipient of the plagues that will befall those giving support to false religion. (Revelation 18:4, 5)
Wasn't this very narrow minded of the GB not to identify the curse that would also be upon all other religions and worshipers of false gods?
Of what exactly are you accusing the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses of doing? What "curse"? The only "curse" that exists to my knowledge among all mankind is "the envelopment that is enveloping over all the peoples, and the woven work that is interwoven upon all the nations," that is, "the law of sin and death." (Isaiah 25:7; Roman 8:2) If anyone should not be worshipping the true God, Jehovah, they are engaged in false worship and their worship is futile, since they are not keeping themselves without spot from the world over which Satan is god. (James 1:26, 27; 2 Corinthians 4:4)
At Luke 10:16, Jesus said, in referring to his followers, that "he that listens to you listens to me too. And he that disregards you disregards me [too]. Moreover, he that disregards me disregards also him that sent me forth." If for whatever reason you think Jehovah's Witnesses, even the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, are not Jesus' followers, that's fine; only you can decide whether or not you believe that we are followers of the teachings of Christ Jesus. If a one-legged man, a teacher, manages to get your child from the school several miles to your home safely during a blizzard, why criticize him for doing what no one else attempted to do because of the weather because it took him two hours to do what you could have done in 20 minutes?
Jehovah's Witnesses are engaged in doing a work that is global in scope in making disciples of people of all nations, and we are doing the very best we can with our limited numbers to get the preaching work accomplished to God's satisfaction, and if you know some other Christian group that is doing a similar work, then, instead of criticizing us for being "narrow minded," why not help this other group accomplish its work? We aren't perfect, but we are doing as best we can with our seven million plus to bring the good news of God's kingdom by Christ Jesus to a world population of 6.9 billion a monumental job whether you were helping us or someone else get it done. (Matthew 28:19, 20; 24:14)
If I understand the Organization they have taught how prophecies quite often have more than one fulfillment and it wouldn't be any surprise that they say new light has shown that this trumpet prophecy was fulfilled as they say currently but that it will be [fulfilled] again.
You are talking about prophetic patterns, which may involve prophetic types, prophetic parallels and prophetic elements; a prophecy may often involve a minor fulfillment, a typical fulfillment and a major fulfillment. It would be a surprise to me, however, if the seven trumpet blasts in Revelation chapters 8, 9 and 11 had anything more than a typical fulfillment. If you have no real understanding of prophetic patterns -- based on what you just said here, it would seem that you don't! -- then I'm going to have to leave it here.
For instance, it's like the prophecies that were spoken by Jesus and his apostles such as the destruction of Jerusalem. It was [fulfilled] in its destruction but is to be [fulfilled] again.
I'm sorry, @Listener, but how exactly is the destruction of Jerusalem to be "[fulfilled] again"? I don't know about what exactly you are speaking here.
@djeggnog
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VampireDCLXV
Should've known you'd show up eventually... FREAK.
V665
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Listener
Thank you for your response djeggnog and you have misunderstood me in certain instances. I am not a scholar at expressing my views correctly. But I do take note of your strong comments and possibly a little derogative (e.g. that I don't have a fundamental knowledge of the bible). But your comments are quite understandable in your defence and also your firm committment of truth.
What I have a problem is the fulfillment of the trumpets was relating to a third of Chistendom and not to the all of false religion. Also that it relates to a series of concurrent conventions where they are not the only conventions that have trumpeted important information and light.
I have not looked so closely at the religious beliefs for many years now and have only just started to do this again, my aim is to determine whether I can once again put my trust in the organisation and truelly believe all that they are teaching. I have been let down deeply by the organization many years ago and became so disillusioned by what happened that I could not continue with the same dedication I had - to the organisation but not my love of Jehovah. I have been told that the organisation is made up of imperfect men who make mistakes but because I lost my trust in them there was no point in continuing on with the deepest respect that was required.
My renewed desire for understanding better has possibily been started out on a wrong premise and that is that the JWs may not be the only religion with followers that are earnestly seeking and having a good relationship with God. This means that not just JWs have the promise of salvation but many others do also. As I start to find how many incorrect and change doctrines/ideas the JWs have the more I am leaning to this idea.
There is no question in my mind that many JWs are faithfull and serving God to the best of their ability and as you say it is not for me to judge them anyway. But there are others that are doing this also and the JWs will not and do not acknowledge this and in fact testify that they will be destroyed. That is not for us to judge and not for the organisation to judge either but there are endless articles that state all other religions have false teachings and those in their faith will be destroyed. Yet there have been false teachings and false expectations from the JWs but somehow they are the only ones that are excused of this.
You have scolded me and scolded me well. Maybe you can help clear my mind about the following ideas that have particularly stumbled me-
The organisation says that Jesus is not mediator to all but only to the annointed although we can all benefit from this covenant arrangement. However, all JWs which include the annointed and great crowd are told that they should pray through the name of Jesus. This then makes him a mediator for the great crowd which the org says he is not. The only thing I can find about this is that this arrangement is a sign of respect from the great crowd and to acknowledge that this arrangement exists. But by praying through Jesus he has automatically become the mediator.
The other thing is about the annointed class. Somehow my earlier teachings did not make it clear about the idea that up until 1935 or thereabouts all JWs had the heavenly promise only. Now this raises questions that I am unable to clarify from my own research. Does this mean faithful ones from Jesus time until 1935 also had only the heavently promise? I doubt it because the numbers would surely add up to far greater than 144,000. How is it that a religion for a period of time would only be avalable to those that God wanted to choose as his annointed and not to all people?
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djeggnog
@brotherdan:
While there are many MANY things wrong with your post, djeggnog, I'd like to point out just 2.
I respect your view that, according to your faith, "the Lord's day" to mean. Please try to accept the fact that, according to my faith, I believe it to begin in the year 1914, ok? My post is "wrong" according to your faith, but not according to my faith. I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in proving that you are mistaken in your viewpoint. Furthermore, since all Jehovah's Witnesses speak in agreement, we all subscribe to this view of when "the Lord's day" began.
There is only one other point I wanted to make here:
The Holy Spirit was given on [Pentecost] in Acts 2:1. [Pentecost] ALWAYS falls on a Sunday: The Lords Day
I don't disagree that on Nisan 14 of the year 33 AD, when Jesus died his sacrificial death, Pentecost occurred on the 50th day after "the day after the seventh sabbath," which 50th day -- Sivan 6 -- in the year 33 AD fell on a Sunday. While the Jewish Passover is always on Nisan 14, and the seven-day-long Festival of Unfermented Cakes always begins on Nisan 15, the day after the Passover, and it was always on the second day of this festival -- on Nisan 16 -- that the high priest would present to Jehovah a sheaf (an omer, which is 1/10 of an ephah or 2 US quarts) of newly ripened grain as the firstfruits from the barley harvest. BTW, this grain offering consisted of two leavened loaves of wheat bread that were used by the high priest as a wave offering to Jehovah represented the Jews and the Gentiles.
But clearly you are not a Bible scholar, @brotherdan, and so, were you to compare the first three months of our Gregorian Calendar Year 2011 with the first three months of the Jewish Calendar for 33 AD, and specifically January 14, 2011, which corresponds to the Nisan 14, 33 AD (except that Nisan contains only 30 days), you would need to lend the last day of January -- Monday, January 31, 2011 -- to in effect give February an additional day that would correspond to Iyar 1, 33 AD (since Iyar contains 29 days), and Tuesday, February 1, 2011, would then correspond to Iyar 2, 33 AD, so that Monday, February 28, 2011, would correspond to Iyar 29, 33 AD.
Tuesday, March 1, 2011, corresponds to Sivan 1, 33 AD (and Sivan is like Nisan in containing 30 days), so Sunday, March 6, 2011, would correspond to Sivan 6, 33 AD, which is the 50th day following the second day of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes, called the Festival of Weeks, and this 50th day later came to be called "Pentecost."
"'And you must count for yourselves from the day after the sabbath, from the day of your bringing the sheaf of the wave offering, seven sabbaths. They should prove to be complete. To the day after the seventh sabbath you should count, fifty days, and you must present a new grain offering to Jehovah. Out of your dwelling places you should bring two loaves as a wave offering.'" (Leviticus 23:15-17)
But is it true that Pentecost always falls on a Sunday? Well, were you to compare the first three months of our Gregorian Calendar Year 2013 with the first three months of the Jewish Calendar for 32 AD, you would find that this is not the case, for our March 6, 2013, corresponds to Sivan 6, 32 AD, which is a Wednesday. Were you to compare the first three months of our Gregorian Calendar Year 2015 with the first three months of the Jewish Calendar for both 30 AD and 31 AD, you would also find that Pentecost does not fall on a Sunday, but that our March 6, 2015, corresponds to Sivan 6, 30 AD and 31 AD, which in these two years is a Friday and not a Sunday.
@djeggnog
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wannabefree
since all Jehovah's Witnesses speak in agreement, we all subscribe to this view of when "the Lord's day" began
Unity by confirmity. You shall conform your thinking or you aren't a "True Christian" ... because the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Incorporated said so.
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djeggnog
@Listener:
Thank you for your response djeggnog and you have misunderstood me in certain instances. I am not a scholar at expressing my views correctly. But I do take note of your strong comments and possibly a little derogative (e.g. that I don't have a fundamental knowledge of the bible). But your comments are quite understandable in your defence and also your firm [commitment] of truth.
Oh, have I really misunderstood you "in certain instances"? Unlike Jesus, I cannot read your heart, but based on what things you did say, I am nonetheless able to read you like a book. If you think my pointing out how little one knows about the Bible to be "possibly a little derogative," then I'm slipping a bit here, because my intent is to speak truthfully here both my subjective and objective viewpoints about the lack of knowledge that exists here on this forum. Since I do not subscribe to the "tenet" of so many regarding political correctness, I might say things in such a way that is unique to a forum such as this one (that you just cannot do in a local congregation) that circumscribes a particular viewpoint "to make it obedient to the Christ," calling a spade a spade without seeming to give any consideration to the offense my words might cause others, but using tact whenever I can so as not to totally turn off anyone here that is mature. (2 Corinthians 10:4, 5; Colossians 4:6)
Now I do expect that those lacking in maturity in this support coalition that exists on this forum will take offense at some of the things I say here, even as did many of Jesus' opposers, and they may react vociferously in response to my words, not at all relishing being called on their foolishness by anyone, and so my being committed to speaking the truth as I ought to be speaking, with boldness, according to God's word, will often be met with disdainful remarks -- "burning missiles" -- to which I will either ignore or respond for the sake of those lurking the thread, for the sake of those who may want or need me to answer someone's baseless or tasteless remarks to perhaps shore up their waning faith. (Ephesians 6:16, 20)
However, with God's power at work in me, I am able to make masterful use of the sword in delivering a master stroke to those here that are often found speaking in opposition to God's word, with me alone leaving some 185,000 that had been carrying swords of their own against me no longer drawing breath, they having been "killed off" by the sword given me by the God that inspires fear, the God that strengthens my faith as He did Hezekiah's in instilling dread in His enemies, whose name is Jehovah. (Philippians 4:13; Isaiah 37:36; Psalm 83:18)
What I have a problem [in] the fulfillment of the trumpets was relating to a third of [Christendom] and not to the all of false religion.
You are going to have to blame God for this. Please do not blame Jehovah's Witnesses for how the meaning attached to these seven trumpet blasts came to be fulfilled in our day. John wrote this prophecy we read in the book of Revelation back in the year 96 AD.
Also that it relates to a series of concurrent conventions where they are not the only conventions that have trumpeted important information and light.
This idea is absurd and I know that you are not the only one that has expressed this particularly stupid sentiment. The seven trumpet blasts related at Revelation chapters 8, 9 and 11 have absolutely nothing at all to do with the conventions or the resolutions that were read at them. There are many here that will claim that they read this in the Revelation--Its Grand Climax at Hand! book, but this is not what this book states at all!
It seems to me that you would make the focus of these judgments against Christendom the conventions held between the years 1922 and 1929 at which God's people announced what things had already been trumpeted beforehand, beginning with the eight-day convention held back at Cedar Point, Ohio, on September 1-8, 1919. In chapter 21 of the Revelation Climax book, contrary to what folks have said here on this forum that claimed to have read this book, we read: "In line with there being a sequence of trumpet blasts, special resolutions were featured at seven subsequent conventions held from 1922 through 1928. But the trumpeting has not been confined to those years." (Id. at 133, para. 15)
It was in the year 1919 that Joseph F. Rutherford boldly announced before the throngs in attendance at this first Cedar Point convention on September 7, 1919, how it is "our privilege and duty to make war against the strongholds of error which have so long held the people in bondage, ... and is to announce the incoming glorious kingdom of Messiah." (Id. at 131, para. 7) As Hebrews 5:14 states, solid food belongs to those that are mature.
I have not looked so closely at the religious beliefs for many years now and have only just started to do this again, my aim is to determine whether I can once again put my trust in the organisation and [truly] believe all that they are teaching. I have been let down deeply by the organization many years ago and became so disillusioned by what happened that I could not continue with the same dedication I had - to the organisation but not my love of Jehovah. I have been told that the organisation is made up of imperfect men who make mistakes but because I lost my trust in them there was no point in continuing on with the deepest respect that was required.
Whoever it was that told you that "there was no point in continuing on" with God's organization may have caused you to stumble, but you yourself are the blame for allowing yourself to be stumbled by people who you had every reason to know were just as imperfect as you and I, since I'm absolutely sure you had to have learned early on when studying with Jehovah's Witnesses that"all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Matthew 18:7; Romans 3:23) Did you never read the passage at Psalm 146:3, 4:
Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.
Not only this, but Jesus even said that stumbling blocks would emerge among his followers, but he gave no exemption to those stumbled. In fact, at Matthew 11:6, Jesus said, "Happy is he that finds no cause for stumbling in me," so if you permitted yourself to be stumbled on account of "imperfect men," I no more feel sorry for you than would the Lord Jesus Christ, because no one at all can rightly say that he didn't warned them as to the existence of such persons in order that we would not be stumbled on this account. Have none of the elders ever spoken the word of God to you with such resoluteness, with such firmness in conviction? Have none of your former brothers and sisters in Christ ever delivered such a rebuke as I am now doing?
My renewed desire for understanding better has [possibly] been started out on a wrong premise and that is that the JWs may not be the only religion with followers that are earnestly seeking and having a good relationship with God. This means that not just JWs have the promise of salvation but many others do also. As I start to find how many incorrect and [changed] doctrines/ideas the JWs have the more I am leaning to this idea.
Jude said that there would be those that would proceed "according to their own desires for ungodly things." (Jude 18) You may have lost your way, but if you do stop murmuring and lose this self-righteous attitude soon, you may never regain the good relationship with Jehovah that you here claim you are seeking, for "God opposes the haughty ones, but he gives undeserved kindness to the humble ones." (James 4:6)
There is no question in my mind that many JWs are [faithful] and serving God to the best of their ability and as you say it is not for me to judge them anyway.
Regarding your opinion as to the narrow-mindedness of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, I said that "only you can decide whether or not you believe that we are followers of the teachings of Christ Jesus." I was speaking here about your making a judgment about Jehovah's Witnesses, even the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, as to whether or not we are followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. Quoting Luke 10:16, I also added that anyone that disregards those sent my Jesus disregards Jehovah, the one that sent Jesus to speak His word to us. I certainly did not say that it is not for you to judge Jehovah's Witnesses. Please read my words and do not read more into them than I actually say.
While we must not be judgmental, judging others based on our own subjective standards, we ought to be judging others by God's righteous standards, which is what I do and am doing now. (Matthew 7:1-5; John 7:24; 1 Corinthians 5:12; Romans 14:10) As James put it, who are we to be judging our neighbor by our own standards? Indeed, what do my own subjective viewpoints matter to our "lawgiver and judge"? (James 4:12)
But there are others that are doing this also and the JWs will not and do not acknowledge this and in fact testify that they will be destroyed. That is not for us to judge and not for the organisation to judge either but there are endless articles that state all other religions have false teachings and those in their faith will be destroyed.
You are mistaken; Jehovah's Witnesses must judge all things. In fact, "all the things that are being reproved are made manifest by the light, for everything that is being made manifest is light." (Ephesians 5:13) But our reproof must be based on the righteous judgment of our God and not on our own subjective judgment. When we visit folks at their homes, we are, in fact, condemning them for how they are living without regard for sanctification without which no will be saved in order that they may repent and be numbered among that "great crowd" of survivors "that come out of the great tribulation" at the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ. (Hebrews 12:14; Revelation 7:9, 14) There is but one God, and one Lord, one body and one spirit, one hope and one faith, and before it is too late, you will have to accept that all of those not pursuing this one faith will be destroyed, or you yourself will be among those that perish. (Ephesians 4:4-6)
Yet there have been false teachings and false expectations from the JWs but somehow they are the only ones that are excused of this.
What "false teachings"? What "false expectations" do you mean? Your expectations or someone else's?
You have scolded me and scolded me well. Maybe you can help clear my mind about the following ideas that have particularly stumbled me-
The organisation says that Jesus is not mediator to all but only to the [anointed] although we can all benefit from this covenant arrangement. However, all JWs which include the [anointed] and great crowd are told that they should pray through the name of Jesus. This then makes him a mediator for the great crowd which the org says he is not.
How do you figure that praying to God through Christ makes Jesus a mediator for the "great crowd"?" On what basis do you same this? Between whom exactly was the new covenant made? Jesus is quoted as saying at Luke 22:29, "I make a covenant with you ... for a kingdom." If you should not be one of the 144,000 chosen by God to inherit the kingdom, what is it in the Bible that has persuaded you to believe that you yourself will be among those that will also sit on a throne in the heavenly kingdom of God? (Luke 22:30; 2 Timothy 2:12)
The only thing I can find about this is that this arrangement is a sign of respect from the great crowd and to acknowledge that this arrangement exists. But by praying through Jesus he has automatically become the mediator.
Ok.
The other thing is about the [anointed] class. Somehow my earlier teachings did not make it clear about the idea that up until 1935 or thereabouts all JWs had the heavenly promise only. Now this raises questions that I am unable to clarify from my own research. Does this mean faithful ones from Jesus time until 1935 also had only the [heavenly] promise?
It would appear that are you seeking validation of some of the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses with respect to those possessing the heavenly hope among Jehovah's Witnesses from religious sources outside of Jehovah's Witnesses, but what possible difference would it make to you if some back in 1935 should not have had this hope, but had earthly hopes?
I doubt it because the numbers would surely add up to far greater than 144,000.
Ok.
How is it that a religion for a period of time would only be [available] to those that God wanted to choose as his [anointed] and not to all people?
Well, Jesus put it this way: "Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is." (Matthew 11:11) This means that the privilege of being chosen to be numbered among God's anointed was not extended to Jesus' own second cousin, John the Baptist, even as for a very long period of time before John, this heavenly hope had not been extended to anyone at all, until after John's death among Jesus' apostles and among all people exercising faith in the Lord Jesus Christ until the heavenly calling came to an end in 1935.
Do you think Jehovah cannot do according to how His will operates? It would be good for you to keep the following in mind: "The purpose of God respecting the choosing [is] dependent ... upon the One who calls," and not upon what you might think. (Romans 9:11)
@djeggnog
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cantleave
Ha Ha eggnog - I love your description of that book of shit - "Revelation - it's grand climax at hand".
How many times has that piece of bound toilet paper been studied since 1988?
If it is such a definitive "commentary"(PMSL), why did they have to change it?
eggnog - you talk total crap and then try to patronise posters on here because they have rejected the false teachings of a false prophet.