by cofty 214 Replies latest watchtower bible
Sodom and Gomorrah (Canaanite nations) were warned before they were destroyed. Genesis chapters 18-19.
The 7 nations who inhabited The Promised Land would have done well to heed this lesson.
As I have posited before on similar discussions, NO ONE - including babies and children - is innocent in the sight of God.
Syl
Diamondiiz,
The Ninevites were warned, is it possible that God knew they would repent and turn around if warned? Yes, thus the warning. Sodom was not warned, is it possible God knew they would not stop their violent ways even with a warning? Yes. Even today there are groups of people who are so entrenched in their violence and hatred that no offer of peace will be accepted. And then there are others who, though in opposition, do want peace and are willing to seek that peace.
"If it's human wars as I see it, I can anderstand it why women and children were killed and why no one was spared but if they were god's wars it doesn't make sense."
In the time of the OT this was the way it was. Whether the accounts are literal or allegorical matters little, either way we learn something about God. God will do what he deems is necessary and what in the long run is best for all concerned including those who have died whether justly or seemingly unjustly. We are not God. We do not have the power to right all wrongs or to resurrect.
If God exists we all have the hope of something better if he does not then this life is all we have. Which is more unjust? That God exists and those who suffer death have the hope of a better life in the future or that God does not exist and this life only we have? In the bottom line of all things which is firmly planted in injustice; God allowing temporary death or no god exists and all who have suffered in extreme poverty and depravation will never have a chance to live a better life, ever! I believe the latter situation is the more unjust for to live our one and only life in misery just because we happen to be born in a poor country or are of another race while others live in comfort with all the food they want is extremely unjust. It is so unjust that every man or woman who believes there is no God should not rest until all humanity has an opportunity to live that one life as a good life. But that will never happen, it is not possible. There is only One who can guarantee that each man and woman and child has a hope for a better life and though we may not understand Him, or think His ways wrong, it is a hard truth that it is only through God that all peoples and individuals can have a hope for a better life, a life worth living.
If there is no God then the millions and millions all around the world living in abject poverty are merely the eternally miserable and hungry dead waiting to pass into oblivion. This is the height of injustice and the legacy that evolution, if true, has doomed all mankind to.
The ability of believers to sub-contract their ethics to a third party is truly frightening. I actually feel repulsed by the idea that modern day xtians can even consider being apologists for the war crimes of Israel.
BXJW are you really saying that there was some kind of justice in despatching thousands of women and children in cold blood because thee is an after-life? Is this not exactly the sort of thinking that motivated the crusades and the conquistadors?
You have fallen into the all too familiar world-view of "us and them".
Its the same way of thinking that made it possible for American troops to abuse and torture prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan. Its the same mentality that allowed Israeli troops to engineer the slaughter of thousands of Palestinians in the Sabla and Shatila refugee camps in September 1982. If you have the stomach for it do a google image search with "safe search" turned off. Its the same perverse attitude that has led to uncountable massacres and genocides throughout history. First you convince yourself that god is on your side, then label your enemy as wicked or evil, after that anything is possible.
"gott mit uns" - its the war cry of every tyrant in history and the OT is just another sickening example.
Cofty,
"I actually feel repulsed by the idea that modern day xtians can even consider being apologists for the war crimes of Israel."
You set up a question then turn around and become repulsed when we answer? And you are the logical one here?
"BXJW are you really saying that there was some kind of justice in despatching thousands of women and children in cold blood because thee is an after-life?"
No, that's not what I'm saying but since you brought it up, mankind has killed many more millions in cold blood without being able to restore them. You tell me, which concept is more reprehensible!
"You have fallen into the all too familiar world-view of "us and them".
I could say the same about you but I refrain.
"Its the same way of thinking that made it possible for American troops to abuse and torture prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan. Its the same mentality that allowed Israeli troops to engineer the slaughter of thousands of Palestinians in the Sabla and Shatila refugee camps in September 1982. If you have the stomach for it do a google image search with "safe search" turned off. Its the same perverse attitude that has led to uncountable massacres and genocides throughout history. First you convince yourself that god is on your side, then label your enemy as wicked or evil, after that anything is possible."
My goodness, I take back the "refrain" above. Let me repeat and I will keep repeating as long as it takes: We cannot use our present day views of war, marriage, morals, customs etc to judge peoples in the extreme past. You, it seems, want to continue to believe that we can that's fine but in point of fact it does not work. In the time of Moses war was war. Also, in today's just wars, many innocents are killed and their deaths are not considered war crimes. Lastly, the Bible has nothing to do with what various armies today have done or are doing including Israel. You are convincing yourself as well it seems. Labels work both ways.
There will never be a "common ground" on this issue between belivers and non-believer, heck there isn't ene a common ground between ALL beleivers on this issue.
This is how ancient Man viewed warfare:
A goes to war against B because *insert reason here*.
A and B ntoh pray to their chosen Deity and offer sacrfices.
A and B go to war.
A wins and slaughters B and depending on the heat of battle and animosity, the slaughter can progress beyond the battlefield and many times does.
A thanks their Deity and knows their sacrfice was good and their Deity is plased, they Won after all and it is their Deities will thei devotion to It that brought their victory.
B thinks/knows that their sacrfice was not acceptable to thyeir Deity and as such It punished them for their desobdienc and onworthy worship, their Deity punished them by allowing them to be defeated and their women raped, children killed and their soccer field mowed the wrong way.
Victor writes/passes on their victory in the annalls ( or anals depending on your view) of history.
or anals depending on your view ...
LOL.
One thing you will not find in those annals is a Deity telling His people that the land on which they settle will be the place of His throne and the resting place for His Feet to time indefinite. Ezekiel 43:7
Syl
6 While the man was standing beside me, I heard someone speaking to me out of the temple. 7 He said to me: Mortal, this is the place of my throne and the place for the soles of my feet, where I will reside among the people of Israel forever. The house of Israel shall no more defile my holy name, neither they nor their kings, by their whoring, and by the corpses of their kings at their death. c 8 When they placed their threshold by my threshold and their doorposts beside my doorposts, with only a wall between me and them, they were defiling my holy name by their abominations that they committed; therefore I have consumed them in my anger. 9 Now let them put away their idolatry and the corpses of their kings far from me, and I will reside among them forever.
Someone should have told the Romans that ;)
You set up a question then turn around and become repulsed when we answer? And you are the logical one here?
Yes I am repulsed by the ability of xtians to so blithely excuse the war crimes of those who did god's bidding in ancient times. The passing of centuries is of no relevance. Nothing illogical there.
No, that's not what I'm saying but since you brought it up, mankind has killed many more millions in cold blood withoutbeing able to restore them. You tell me, which concept is more reprehensible!
So god's ehtics are being judged as better than modern day tyrants? Don't we need to set the bar a bit higher for the almighty?
We cannot useour present day views of war, marriage, morals, customs etc to judge peoples in the extreme past.
Why not? I am not judging the ancient Israelites I am questioning why the god, who apparently never changes, ordered his people to behave in this way. Unless of course you are conceding that it is in fact just an ancient record of a Bronze Age people who thought they wer acting on god's behalf
You are convincing yourself as well it seems.
Of what?
Someone should have told the Romans that ;)
Good point PSacremento. Its also the basis of modern Israel's justification for ongoing war crimes against the women and children of Palestine
Actually, it is quite correct to judge the actions of ancient man based on what we know view as our "superior morals".
That is what keeps us, hopefully, from doing the same crap.
And since God is the same, always, that means that our moral, as they become better, are become more like the should be, like God created us to be.
That is why Jesus could say to love your enemies and not slaughter their women and children.
OUR understanding of what God wants from us was/is progressing more and more, but the greatest hurrdle is still there and that hurdle is our Pride.
