According to fundi Christians, where did people go when they died pre-ransom? (page 3)

brotherdan

BurntheShips: But while Jesus was on earth he spoke of Abraham being in heaven. Elijah was spoken of as going to heaven. And Enoch never saw death but was transferred to heaven.

PSacramento

Brotherdan,

I don't have volume here at work so I am going on whatI read on that clip.

It seems to me that Wright is saying that, IF Jesus fought off Satan in his own conscions, that we are not above having to do that also.

sabastious

They were not burning in a literal Hell. Sheol is not Hell. It is a different place.

So they went to purgatory, gotchya.

-Sab

PSacramento

You know that for some, Sheol was a "part of heaven".

One of the 7 "heavens".

So, technically, it is Heaven 3 (sub-category Sheol-1).

;)

sabastious

One of the 7 "heavens"

That show sucked.

-Sab

PSacramento

Never watched it, but I recall watching "Joan of Arcadia" for a bit and liking it, but then it just got cancelled.

So much for my tastes, LOL !

brotherdan

PSac: But read what he wrote carefully. He said the voice of evil was in his own head, and hence we should expect those same voices. He was basically denying that Satan was a real person.

Wright has strange views in regards to justification as well. He translates justification into immediate and future aspects, and pushes the personal facts of justification into the eschatalogical future, in a final judgment. (Sort of like half JW and half Catholic). In his book about a NEW way to look at the Paulline epistles on page 129: “Present justification declares, on the basis of faith, what future justification will affirm publicly . . .on the basis of the entire life.”

That’s wrong for two reasons:

First, it makes someones faithfulness, or obedience, the basis of final justification, thus basing the ultimate declaration of righteousness in the believer’s own works, rather than grounding justification completely in the finished work of Christ on our behalf.

Second, by dividing justification into immediate and future aspects, Wright has unwittingly made justification into a process. It's VERY like the JW view.

PSacramento

PSac: But read what he wrote carefully. He said the voice of evil was in his own head, and hence we should expect those same voices. He was basically denying that Satan was a real person.

Well, I don't recall reading that he thought that Satan wasn't a real person, but I do agree that Satan will work his evil in our heads ( minds).

I can't speak for Wright, but I don't think he was tryng to say what you think he said...

Wright has strange views in regards to justification as well. He translates justification into immediate and future aspects, and pushes the personal facts of justification into the eschatalogical future, in a final judgment. (Sort of like half JW and half Catholic). In his book about a NEW way to look at the Paulline epistles on page 129: “Present justification declares, on the basis of faith, what future justification will affirm publicly . . .on the basis of the entire life.”

If I recall correctly, Wright states that there is life after death and lafe after life after death ( the ressurection), so that is consisten with that view and I tend to agree that, IF you take the writings of Revelation then yes, even after the ressurection there will be a further "justification".

That’s wrong for two reasons:

First, it makes someones faithfulness, or obedience, the basis of final justification, thus basing the ultimate declaration of righteousness in the believer’s own works, rather than grounding justification completely in the finished work of Christ on our behalf.

Second, by dividing justification into immediate and future aspects, Wright has unwittingly made justification into a process. It's VERY like the JW view.

Well... I am not sure if I agree with you on that and not sure if that is where he is going with that view.

BurnTheShips

So they went to purgatory, gotchya.

Not necessarily purgatory.

BurntheShips: But while Jesus was on earth he spoke of Abraham being in heaven. Elijah was spoken of as going to heaven. And Enoch never saw death but was transferred to heaven.

As I have said, "for the most part." Elijah and Enoch are two notable exceptions, both were "transferred"...bodily, it seems.

Elijah and Enoch are exceptions.

Luke 16:19-31 speaks of a place called Abraham's Bosom. This is not Heaven, this was the place in Sheol where the souls of the saints rested, awaiting deliverance.

In Gen. 37:35, Jacob implies that he will go to Sheol (not Heaven)

All his sons and daughters came to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. "No," he said, "in mourning will I go down to the grave [ a ] to my son." So his father wept for him.

(the word here for "grave is Sheol)

1 Cor 15:20: But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

1 Hebrews 13:20: May the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep by the blood of the eternal covenant, Jesus our Lord,

Matthew 12:40: Just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

He was brought up from the dead after 3 days in the heart of the earth. Where was Jesus for the 3 days prior to his resurrection?

Jesus descended to the place of the dead and preached the Gospel to the souls resting in wait for Him:

1 Peter 4:6: For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit.

1 Peter 3:18: For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison

1 Phil 2:10: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Revelation 1:18: the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever and ever. I hold the keys to death and the netherworld.

Ephesians 4:9: What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended into the lower (regions) of the earth? The one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.

BTS

According to fundi Christians, where did people go when they died pre-ransom?

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