by Cold Steel 36 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-bator:
The rest of "creation" await the end of 1000 years for the full blessings. Bear in mind that The bible calls the 144,000 the first-fruits which indicates more to come. whether it be heavenly or earthly
If being on a paradise earth was so Bad why did angels come to live on the earth before the flood when it wasn't even a paradise?
My Reply: PLease post the scripture where 144,000 are called the first fruits? They are not. Caught you in another lie Reniaa.
Reading whole chapters from the bible itself is not something I can recall the org encouraging. Even their daily tests were just one paragraph with a whole lot of writing from the org.
It would be interesting to see how many different interpretations they alone give any one paragraph.
Cold Steel:
Okay, based on my reading, you're clearly better off being one of the 144,000.
And that, CS, is where the problem starts. The Revelation is a revelation. It is a revealing. And it is Jaheshua who “reveals” it to you, you-personally.
If you're a JW, what do you think? Would you choose to be one of the 144,000 if given the choice?
CS, you (we) don’t have “a choice” in whether we become part of the 144,000. The text plainly says where the 144,000 come from. Read it again: 12,000 from this tribe, 12,000 from that tribe, etc., etc., etc., from the nation of Israel. You do not have a choice as to what tribe you belong to—you are from a particularly tribe of Israel or you are not. It’s not a question of choice other than IF you are a member of one of those tribes, do you accept God’s provision for salvation? And, does God place you within that 12,000 group from that specific tribe of which you belong. Obviously the tribes numerical volume were/are larger than 12,000, but the 12,000 places are saved/reserved out of those twelve tribes. Are you among them is the question?
Are you a person from one of those twelve tribes? Which tribe? I suppose you could be, but ONLY if Jah places you in your respective 12,000 number from that tribe can you even be one of the 144,000.
If you are NOT an Israelite/Israeli from any one of those specific twelve tribes, you will never be one of the 144,000. However, you can be a member of the great crowd from among ANY of the nations of the earth (not Israel) who will rule as kings and priests.
If it was that great, why did naughty angels come to earth?
I seriously can't read anything I just wrote. ^^^^ I keep getting distracted, lol!
People really want to live forever without sex?? I'm straight and I can't help staring, lol!
So for dead ones with spiritual, heavenly hopes and for dead ones with earthly Paradisaic hopes the rule enunciated by Jesus Christ stands unaltered: “In the resurrection neither do men marry nor are women given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven.” (Matt. 22:30) At the flood of Noah’s day angels were punished for entering into marriage, which in that instance was with the daughters of men because they were so lovely-looking. (Gen. 6:1-4) In the resurrection of the “other sheep” on earth, no former married person will have occasion to envy another former married person, as would be the case if this latter one got back his former marriage mate who had remained single, whereas the envious marriage mate does not get back his former partner because this partner remarried and survived Armageddon with his new marriage mate. What the resurrection promises men is, not remarriage, but reliving, and this under God’s kingdom by Christ. Is that not something satisfying? Has anyone a right to demand more through Christ’s sacrifice? Christ died for you, not to marry, but to live! Let us not be swayed or overcome by sentimentalism or emotionalism
This was the understanding but a later watchtower magazine states that they are only taking an educated guess on this matter.
Hmm...well, marriage, divorce, and previous death would complicate things after the resurrection, no doubt. It's a difficult scripture to understand, for me. The general idea I get is that marriage wouldn't be the utmost concern after the resurrection. I think Jesus' point was the Sadducces. Here's the problem I'm having with this: if I were to die before Armaggedon and be resurrected into a material, fleshly body; I think I'd really miss sex. The impulse is a natural part of the body, reproduction. Now maybe God would get rid of that impulse, I don't know.
I keep running into problems with the idea of an earthly resurrection. Now if the resurrection is heavenly, we receive spirit bodies, this scripture makes a lot more sense to me.
I personally don't buy into the idea that angels came to Earth and took wives. It's a myth that goes back into some non-canonical writings, some of which are quite old. What I think happened was the Balam strategy, which the fallen prophet devised to defeat the Israelites under Moses. The "Sons of God" are not angels at all, but humans who had accepted the covenants of God and were known by that term. The "daughters of men" referred to the daughters of the idolators, who led the children of the covenant astray. This whole business of the Watchers (fallen angels) is simply the equivilent of ancient science fiction. From the Wikipedia:
In 1 Enochand Book of Jubileesthe Genesis 6 text was developed into a complicated mythology of fallen angels. The 2nd century B.C. Book of Enoch turns the "sons of God" into fallen angels, referred to as Watchers, who came to earth and had children with human women, resulting in a race of half-angel, half-human beings known as the "Giants" (Nephilim). The view is found in Philo and in Josephus Antiquities 1:73 (or 1:3.1). However not all Jews accepted the angelic interpretation of Genesis 6. Rabbi Shimeon ben Yochai pronounced a curse on any Jew teaching the Enochite interpretation, and, later Trypho the Jew rejected the interpretation. This was followed by Rashi and Nachmanides. Some commentators on Luke 20:34-36 believe that Jesus was also familiar with the Enochic interpretation, and can be counted with Shimeon ben Yochai, since Jesus rejected that angels could marry and in the same passage equated the "sons of God" with humans.
The Enochite interpretation is bizarre and the Jehovah's Witnesses are about the only religion that buys into it nowadays. Everyone can believe as they wish, as the biblical account allows for either interpetation. In times of rampant apostasy, all sorts of ideas come into play. I believe in the beginning, Satan and one-third of the host of heaven fell; but I don't buy the Enochite, or Enochian, notion. Angels don't have the ability to procreate, nor "materialize" as it suits them. The WTS believes these first angels (Satan and his hosts) weren't immediately cast out of heaven, but were "tolerated" for many thousands of years until Jehovah decided to toss them out, and upon the Earth.
The Witnesses believe the "sons of God" are angels because in Job 38 it says: " all the sons of God began shouting in applause." But nowhere does it say these were angels. It's an assumption. For those of us who believe in premortality, it means all of us who were present before the foundations of the Earth were laid. If men and angels were separate beings, why would God need to create man after He had created the angels? And how long did he think Adam and Eve could exist in a crummy garden before their brains turned to mush? He had to know they would eventually partake of the forbidden fruit. In fact, I believe He was counting on it. He did, after all, know all things from the beginning. He would have had to have known the Garden was only a temporary place of habitation and only by transgressing could they continue their progression.
Okay, based on my reading, you're clearly better off being one of the 144,000.
Yes, absolutely. No disagreement there.
And that...is where the problem starts. The Revelation is a revelation. It is a revealing. And it is Jaheshua who “reveals” it to you, you personally.
Well, the revelation came to John. Today, churches say God no longer reveals anything; that the days of revealing are over. I don't belive that. We need revelation today more than at any other time in history.
If you're a JW, what do you think? Would you choose to be one of the 144,000 if given the choice?
Certainly.
CS, you (we) don’t have “a choice” in whether we become part of the 144,000. The text plainly says where the 144,000 come from. Read it again: 12,000 from this tribe, 12,000 from that tribe, etc., etc., etc., from the nation of Israel. You do not have a choice as to what tribe you belong to—you are from a particularly tribe of Israel or you are not. It’s not a question of choice other than IF you are a member of one of those tribes, do you accept God’s provision for salvation? And, does God place you within that 12,000 group from that specific tribe of which you belong. Obviously the tribes numerical volume were/are larger than 12,000, but the 12,000 places are saved/reserved out of those twelve tribes. Are you among them is the question?
According to the scriptures, the 144,000 are chosen by the Father, and they have the Father's name emblazoned on their foreheads. But are we to take everyone's word for it that they're chosen? I have never been to a Kingdom Hall, so I don't know whether any notice is taken when someone partakes of the emblems. I do know, however, that sometimes people (being what they are) show signs of jealously and resentment. If someone shows themselves publicly as being chosen one of the 144,000, I'd think it could lead to chatter.
Are you a person from one of those twelve tribes? Which tribe? I suppose you could be, but ONLY if Jah places you in your respective 12,000 number from that tribe can you even be one of the 144,000. If you are NOT an Israelite/Israeli from any one of those specific twelve tribes, you will never be one of the 144,000. However, you can be a member of the great crowd from among ANY of the nations of the earth (not Israel) who will rule as kings and priests.
Again, I'm with you. But JW theology doesn't buy into that. They believe in a "spiritual" fulfillment. It's one reason they confuse themselves with "Jerusalem" in Armageddon. Actually, unless you're in Jerusalem at the time, there's a good chance you won't even know the battle is going on until the very last part, when Jesus/Jehovah returns and the saints are caught up to meet him. At that point he will enter the East Gate of the Temple and will take his proper place as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Greetings, dear Cold Steel... and peace to you! I would like to respond, if I may? Thank you!
Okay, based on my reading, you're clearly better off being one of the 144,000. First, you get to reside in heaven, while everyone else is consigned to living on Earth.
Actually, this is not true. Both the 144,000 and the great crowd reside on the earth... and live forever... upon it. True, ALL of these GO to "heaven" (the spirit realm) so as to be joined in marriage to their husbandly owner, Christ, the Bridgegroom... but these, who make up New Jerusalem... "come down out of heaven"... and rule... UPON the earth. Wonderfully, they are not confined to either realm... heaven (the spirit realm) OR earth (the physical realm), but like angels... go in and out of both.
Second, a spirit (in WTS eschatology) is much better than being a flesh and bone human. They can fly, read in a darkened room and they get to be with God for eternity.
This part is true, but applies to ALL: the 144,000... the great crowd... and the sheep who are "separated" from the goats (who the 144,000 and great crowd rule over). ALL of these receive "white robes"... the clean/white "outer garment"... which is the spirit body. Unlike the physical body, which is corruptible (i.e., holds sin and death IN it), the spirit body is INcorruptible. So, sin and death have no hold on it.
But what of everyone else? Will flesh and bone humans have the ability to fly, transport themselves over long distances merely by thought and learn of other worlds and beings?
Sorry, but no. Flesh and bone that has HUMAN blood (vs. God's blood, which is holy spirit)... cannot do these things. Unlike the spirit body... which is FREE... the physical body is bound. Enslaved. And a slave. To its desires. Thus, it must not only eat and drink (which the spirit body must do, as well)... it must sleep, expel waste, age, get sick... and die. The wonderful thing is that such bodies will no longer exist... except as to Gog. But Gog will not remain forever. Along with Magog... Gog will be brought to their end.
In other words, do you think (if you're a JW) that you'll be able to do incredible things, see incredible sights in other heavens and other dominions...maybe help create worlds or build interstellar ships?
I am not a JW, so forgive me for responding, but... yes, ALL will be able to do incredible things, see incredible sights... yes, in other heavens and dominions... whether of the 144,000 "from among the sons of Israel"... the great crowd (who wash their robes... flesh... in the blood of the Lamb so that they are "white"... or spirit)... or the sheep who, because of the good they did to Christ (by doing to his brothers)... who are given "white" robes, spirit bodies.
In other words, how happy are you going to be just living in Eden and eating fried chicken, corn on the cob and watermelon?
The only thing that will need to be eaten will be the "leaves" of the Tree of Life. The "bread of life"... and "manna from heaven." It is what spirit beings feed on; however, vegetation can be enjoyed for the sole purpose OF enjoyment. It will not be necessary for LIFE. And no chickens will be eaten as that would mean a death - the chicken's. Since death will be no more... even chickens won't die.
Has anyone ever written about one's potential powers or abilities?
Some of the Prophets have...
Me...I don't think we're going to have the limitations we do now. I think we'll be able to think of many different things at once and comprehend incredible things we don't have an inkling about now.
We will; however, not in the manner we do now because our current thinking is pretty much related to the flesh... with its blood. That which we inherited from Adam. Then, our thinking will be MUCH "higher."
In some near death experiences, people report that they could just look at complex things and immediately comprehend how they worked and what they did. They said they saw incredible buildings and other structures that made anything they saw on Earth pale in comparison. They also said they could communicate just by thought, and not merely by words, but could communicate emotions, and that their powers of recall were perfect; that they could remember any part of their lives on Earth with crystal clarity, perfectly understanding the thoughts and feelings of others.
I realize that skeptics might say that such things are what humans HOPE for, and so project after experiencing such a thing (near death). I personally have not experienced near death, nor spoken to anyone who has and had such experience(s), but I can absolutely relate to what you've stated here. Even now, while I am still in relatively good health (physically speaking).
I'm not saying this has to be the way things are, but do JWs believe their powers and abilities will far outstrip anything Adam and Eve were supposed to do,
My understanding is they do so believe... for those who would reside on the earth. What they miss/don't understand... is that Adam/Eve had such abilities BEFORE they sinned... and were enslaved in the "long garment of skin"... the physical body... that the Most Holy One of Israel gave to them. They believe, however, that those with such "earthly" hope... will have that same kind of flesh. They won't...
and were the 144,000 enabled to see and do much more than those who were resurrected to Earth?
You know, I never really understood what they teach the 144,000 would do "in heaven." Sit on thrones and judge, yes, as well as sit on clouds and play harps... and sing a "new" song. But not much else which, IMHO... seems awfully limited. Why WOULD anyone want that choice? They wouldn't, would they, which makes it quite a clever ploy to get folks to DENOUNCE their desire to be joined to Christ. "More fun" being of the "great crowd" whose hope was on the earth, right? Problem is... the hope is EXACTLY THE SAME... for the 144,000 AND the great crowd! Life... forever... UPON the earth (which God gave to the sons of mankind)... with ACCESS in and out of the spirit realm!
If you're a JW, what do you think? Would you choose to be one of the 144,000 if given the choice?
Please see above...
If you're a former JW, do you recall ever wishing you were one of the 144,000?
Actually, no... not wishing. I mean, I always knew. From the time I was a child. Which is how I ended up IN the WTBTS: they were the only ones talking about "anointed," and "seed of the Woman" and "truth" and "Israel" and "New Covenant" and things like these. But it truly does NOT matter if one is from one of the tribes of Israel (for me, Benjamin)... or of the nations. For by means of his death, Christ REMOVED the "fence"... the Law Covenant... that separated the two peoples. Because Israel STUMBLED over Christ... the nation of kings and priests that was promised to THEM (by means of God's promise to Abraham)... was offered also to the nations. So that through Christ... and the NEW Covenant... the two are now ONE. ONE hope. ONE flock. ONE Lord. ONE God. One baptism.
Is it a secret wish most JWs share? Do they, like, say they don't have a preference, but inwardly, they do?
I believe they do... except to the extent the WTBTS teaches that it is more "fun" to be of the great crowd. But my understanding is that REALLY... ALL Jehovah's Witnesses WISH they were called and chosen by God, through Christ. Sadly, while all of them CAN be... they are not taught this truth and so, because they believe they are not... and/or that they have been rejected... they, in turn... reject the One who WOULD call them.
Rather than going through HIM, the Door, the Truth, the Way, the Narrow Gate... they go "through"... the WTBTS. Thus, they "climb up some other place" and in so doing are considered thieves and plunderers. Because whenever they seek to enter before the face of God... they are doing so WITHOUT having gone THROUGH the One God appointed FOR them to go through. They believe that by merely saying, "In Jesus name we pray," they are getting in. They don't understand that merely saying such... and particularly doing so AFTER they've "approached"... is invalid. They GOT... nowhere. They are praying, therefore, to themselves.
One must go THROUGH... the Door... FIRST.
And if you wanted it badly enough and eventually came to believe you were one of the lucky ones, at what age could you declare? Say you were 15 and you one day just partook of the emblems out of the blue, would your parents have gone through the ceiling?
I was going to leave that for the active Witnesses; however, the word of my Lord, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, to YOU, dear Cold Steel... is that all should listen to HIS voice... regardless of their age... and not concern themselves with what others... including father or mother... think. Samuel was dedicated at age 3 and called at age 5. Jeremiah and John the Baptist were dedicated before birth, with the first being called as a young boy and the second when he was 6 months in the Elizabeth's womb. Daniel, at age 17. Josiah at age 8. Moses was dedicated as an infant. My Lord was in his father's house... teaching THEM... at age 12. My Lord was 27 years old, himself, when he received holy spirit.
Age has absolutely NOTHING to do with it, dear Cold Steel. It is the condition of the heart that is deciding. At any age.
Doesn't it cause a stir when one does partake? Do they say, "Did you see Clyde earlier today? He partook! Who does he think he is?"
Oh, yeah! LOTS of "stir"!!! At least, it did in my case... and I was 36.
"Well, dear, it's obvious who he thinks he is. But can you believe his parents let him do that?"
I know of one who started at age 17... in the Organization... and does to this day. There apparently was some controversy, but because he was pretty much a "Mind your business and not mine" at a very young age... no one called him on it. His parents kind of revered him (he really is that kind of guy). Now, they won't even speak to him. Hasn't since he disagreed with the Organization's teachings. He will be 51 in a few weeks.
How does it work? Clearly just wanting it isn't enough. How does one know?
Wanting it CAN be enough... if one has faith enough to demonstrate one's "want". Meaning, faith enough to HEAR... when the Spirit and the Bride SAYS to such one... "Come!" As to now one knows, my experience and understanding is a bit different from most. Mine is not one those, "Well, I just KNOW," kind of things. There was and is evidence, primarily in what occurred with me (hearing my Lord, then and now). Some will argue that what I hear cannot be proven, but I disagree... mainly because I know ME... and know that I am simply not that smart so as to be able to share the things I have. There is NO way that I could know what spirit beings look like, so as to be able to describe them... even before I saw things in writing that corroborated what I saw.
Again, I realize that some will say, "Just saying you saw something doesn't mean you did," and I get that. But I have always said that I am not exclusive... that what I see and hear others can, too... and have offered how that is possible. Unfortunately, only a few take me up on it (and, thankfully, they realize I wasn't lying about any of it!), and so only that few can say, "Yes, it CAN be done!"
But it really isn't rocket science. In fact, such things (science, etc.) can often get in the way. Because one tries too hard, thinks too hard, overanalyzes, overtheorizes, etc.,... rather than allowing themselves to become "as little children"... in their hearts and thinking. I do not mean become as imbeciles or puerile infants, but... ummmm... less dogmatic (and yes, even atheists can be dogmatic - LOLOL!), less... ummmm... unwilling to ALLOW themselves to even consider something that, in their eyes... is childish. Instead, it really only requires one ALLOWING themselves... to believe... even when it seems like the most foolish thing on earth to do.
It's kind of like learning to float on the water: one may be able to swim quite well, but swimming requires movement, exertion. And those who fight against that often drown. Floating, however, requires being still... and just letting the flesh go. NOT being so cognizant of it, but just... laying back... letting go... and floating.
I hope this helps... and I bid you peace!
A slave of Christ, by means of an anointing with holy spirit,
SA
Actually, no... not wishing. I mean, I always knew. From the time I was a child. Which is how I ended up IN the WTBTS: they were the only ones talking about "anointed," and "seed of the Woman" and "truth" and "Israel" and "New Covenant" and things like these. But it truly does NOT matter if one is from one of the tribes of Israel (for me, Benjamin)... or of the nations.
Are you a JW?
If you are an "annointed one" you get tested 1X .
Your reward is to be an immortal spirit being ruling with Christ as king and priest in heaven .
If you are an "other sheep" you get tested 2X .
Your reward is same body same earth cept perfect living as a subject to of "the annointed ones".
me tinks da nointed wons gits da better gig.
