@aligot ripounsous:
... if Jerusalem was destroyed in - 587 [BC].
Jerusalem was actually destroyed some 20 years before 587 BC in the year 607 BC, and the only people that believe otherwise are those that reject the fact that Jerusalem and its temple were destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar through his chief of the bodyguard, Nebuzaradan, in 607 BC. They refuse to believe what the Bible clearly teaches as having occurred after Nebuchadnezzar's third siege on Jerusalem that the prophet Jeremiah and his secretary Baruch were permitted to remain with the poor in Judah (Jeremiah 40:1-5) under the provisional government of Gedaliah, who had been appointed governor by Nebuchadnezzar, in the fifth lunar month of Ab, while the rest were just two months before God's prophecy regarding the 70-year desolation of Judah actually underwent fulfillment. Two months!
During these two months, Gedaliah was assassinated, so that the men that were left over in the province of Judah were now in fear of Babylon and eventually decided to flee the land of Judah to go to Egypt, dragging Jeremiah and his secretary with them. This last occurred during the seventh lunar month of Tishri, as the festival of ingathering had approached, but there were no longer a temple in Jerusalem, and now there were no people in the land nor any domestic animal. The "seven times" of Daniel's prophecy had now begun! (Daniel 4:25)
It was in 609 BC during Zedekiah's ninth year, Nebuchadnezzar's 16th regnal year, his 17th accession year, that Jerusalem was besieged by Babylon for the third time, and after two years, during Zedekiah's 11th year, Nebuchadnezzar's 18th regnal year, his 19th accession year, a breach was made in Jerusalem's wall, which caused Zedekiah and his men to flee Jerusalem only to be overtaken by Nebuchadnezzar in Jericho, and Zedekiah was then blinded and led captive to Babylon. (2 Kings 25:1,2, 4, 8-10)
In 625 BC, it was crown prince Nebuchadnezzar, who had led Babylonian forces to victory over Egyptian Pharaoh Necho at Carchemish during Josiah's son, Jehoiakim's fourth year, that he became king, for it was then that his father, King Nebopolassar, died. (Jeremiah 46:2) However, it was in 602 BC, during Nebuchadnezzar's 23rd regnal year, or some five years after the desolation of the land of Judah, that Nebuzaradan took those Jews that had fled to surrounding territories into exile at Babylon. (Jeremiah 52:30)
If Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BC, prove it without contradicting the Bible!
@djeggnog wrote:
There is absolutely no one that can produce a single shred of evidence that Jehovah's Witnesses ever took a firm position as to 1975 beyond proclaiming it to be the year that marked 6,000 years of mankind's creation (from 4026 BC). There was nothing magical about the year 1975, except to those among Jehovah's Witnesses like you that had decided or were persuaded to believe 1975 to have [had] more significance than it had, and many of those who ran ahead of God's organization and had begun to spread this man-made doctrine like wildfire, from one end of the globe to the other, used this lie in [scheming] how they wouldn't have to pay off the debt that they were racking up from the purchases they made in the years leading up to 1975 loomed closer.
@lisaBObesa wrote:
You are quite right about the "firm position" on 1975. It was more like a very strong position on 1975 possibly being the end because the Watchtower said that 'reliable' chronology was pointing to that year, and a very "firm position"on the end coming before the generation of 1914 passed away.
I could, but what you are saying here is just semantics, a kind of word game really, that some people love playing. Your quote from an older Watchtower article that "the autumn of the year 1975 marks the end of 6,000 years of human experience...," ends with both the question, "Will it be the time when God executes the wicked and starts off the thousand-year reign of his Son Jesus Christ?" and the answer, "It very well could, but we will have to wait to see." But how does this question and answer from this older Watchtower article prove that Jehovah's Witnesses ever took a firm position or a "very strong position" as to 1975 being more than the year the marked the end of 6,000 years since mankind's creation (in 4026 BC)?
On the rebate coupon that came with your new 60" flat panel LCD HD television appears the following: Rebate checks are mailed from four to six weeks from the date of receipt of your rebate coupon. At the end of four weeks from the date of receipt of your rebate coupon, is it possible that the $800 rebate check that you are expecting to receive could arrive on the first business day of the fifth week? on the fourth business day of the fifth week? on the second business day of the sixth week? "It very well could, but we will have to wait to see." Was this a prediction from the television manufacturer that your rebate check would arrive within six weeks from the date of its receipt of your rebate coupon? No. Was this a prediction from the television manufacturer that your rebate check would arrive within two months of the date of its receipt of your rebate coupon? No. Was this a prediction from the television manufacturer that your rebate check would arrive no later than three months from the date of its receipt of your rebate coupon? No. If the rebate coupon you sent to the television manufacturer should arrive on November 29, 2010, it is possible that you would not receive your $800 rebate check until February 28, 2011, the first business day after its receipt of your rebate coupon some three months plus one day later.
We were promised that the end would come during the generation that began in the year 1914 when the sign of Jesus' invisible presence and the conclusion of this system of things began. Now when exactly will this generation of the sign end? Nobody knows the answer to this question, but because Jehovah's Witnesses reasoned that the word "generation" signified the life span of someone that had been alive in 1914 when the generation began, and so we concluded that the conclusion of this system of things would arrive at some point before the last of this 1914 generation had passed away.
We are now 96 years removed from the year 1914 and the end has not yet arrived, and while the end could come within the next ten years -- I only just heard Andy Rooney say on 60 Minutes tonight "that there are more than 70,000 people in the United States over 100 years old" -- at which time some of the anointed of whom we used to call the "1914 generation" would by 2020 be 106 years old. But Jehovah's Witnesses must now adjust their understanding of the expression, "the 1914 generation," so that it accords with what we now know to be what Jesus meant when using the word "generation" at Matthew 24:34. We now realize that the word "generation" was used by Jesus to signify the period of time that began in 1914 when Jesus' presence would be discerned by his followers.
Let me be as clear as I can, @lisaBObesa: This generation will, in fact, come to an end at Armageddon, and all of the things that Jesus indicated in his prophecy in Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13 and Luke 21 would occur during the generation of the sign that began in 1914 will occur before this generation passes away, including the great tribulation. Indeed, "this generation will by no means pass away until all these things [that Jesus foretold] occur."
@Listener:
We can conclude then that the org does not have the truth but instead are working towards the truth.
Yes, you may so conclude.
God's word is truth and no refinements are necessary as truth cannot be changed.
I agree.
What was once truth in the org. has later been changed rendering the previous taught truth as being false and therefore as this continues to happen there can be no declaration that they have the truth, just something getting closer to the truth.
Jehovah's Witnesses are not capable of changing God's word of truth; no one is, for it alone is the truth. When we declare to others that we have the truth, we are declaring that "we have renounced the underhanded things of which to be ashamed, not walking with cunning, neither adulterating the word of God, but by making the truth manifest recommending ourselves to every human conscience in the sight of God." (2 Corinthians 4:2) It is by our bearing witness to the truth, that Jehovah's Witnesses "go on walking in the truth," so if we should find our interpretation of the truth to be in error, we make whatever adjustments are necessary so that we are in accord with the truth. (3 John 3)
You may continue to say that Jehovah's Witnesses do not have the truth; I won't try to stop you. However, I would dare to say, without interrogating you one way or the other, that there are too many things that I could say to you today that you would be able to comprehend because you were yourself privy to the truth. To folks in Christendom, to people that have read the Bible that same as you and I have read it, you know as well as I do that they would not be able to comprehend many of the things that either of us might say to them because they do not walk in the truth, they don't have the truth and they have never known the truth. I'll leave it there.
I gather eggnogs view would be something like - well you are free to search out another religion that you feel may have the truth and all the best with your endeavours.
You are right; this is exactly my view. Jehovah isn't forcing salvation on anyone. Billions of people have died without having had the opportunity that Jehovah is now giving them, but everyone today is free to reject this salvation, but hopefully the billions of people that have lived in pre-Christian times and after the death of the apostles during the apostasy until the Lord's day began in 1914 will appreciate the salvation that will be offered them during Judgment Day. Those to whom salvation is being offered today may not wish to do what is necessary to gain life and they will not be saved, but the spirit and the bride say to anyone that wishes to take life's water free and who thirsts for righteousness: "Come!" (Revelation 22:17)
However, this does nothing in addressing the JWs claims that they are the only ones that can lead a person to salvation.
Let me put it this way: Anyone that listens to you will die. There is no one that refuses to listen to us that will be saved. Period. By our paying constant attention to ourselves and to what we teach, and living our lives in accord with these things, Jehovah's Witnesses have faith that we will save not just ourselves but those who listen to us. (1 Timothy 4:16)
By saying they exclusively provide the means by which a person can serve and worship God and have the opportunity for deliverance are they really [sanctifying] God's name?
Like Jesus, so do we sanctify God's name. Jehovah sanctified Jesus, Jesus sanctified himself and we are sanctified in union with Christ Jesus by means of truth through our faith in Jesus. (John 10:36; John 17:19; Acts 26:18) As a people for God's name, we are called "Jehovah's Witnesses," and it is God's kingdom -- Jehovah's kingdom by his son, the Lord Jesus Christ -- that we proclaim as the only hope for mankind. (Acts 15:14) You already know that I sanctify God's name, but the question is, are you sanctifying God's name?
@NewYork44M:
Has eggnog indicated that he lived as a witness in the 70s? I did, and I can attest to the fact that your spirituality was judged based upon your belief that the end was coming in 1975.
Yes, I lived as one of Jehovah's Witnesses way before the 70s, and no one but you and those that cared more about what others were saying than what Jehovah's Witnesses that did adhere to what the Bible teaches -- scriptures such as Matthew 24:36, 42 ("Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. You do not know on what day your Lord is coming.") -- believed the end was coming in 1975. Serious students of the Bible would not allow anyone near them that should call himself a "brother" that was preaching any other sort of good news than the good news that they had accepted before becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses. (2 Corinthians 11:4)
I am a serious Bible student and I would judge your spirituality as weak based on your telling me here that you were one of those "Bible students" that actually believed the end was coming in 1975, a teaching that smacks of apostasy since you should have known that such a teaching totally contradicts Jesus' words at Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32 that 'nobody knows that day or hour.'
@JunkYardDog:
I know I left out a few dozen dates but you get the idea. ALL THIS BLASPHEMY WAS TAUGHT AS "PROPER [SPIRITUAL] AT THE PROPER TIME" FROM THE TABLE OF JEHOVAH. MEAT IN DUE SEASON. [INCONTROVERTIBLE] BIBLE FACTS !!!!!!!! TRUTH ETC. OF COURSE THE WTS NEVER TELLS THE TRUTH ABOUT ANY OF THIS STUFF TODAY . THEY JUST KEEP LYING IN NEW WT MAGS ABOUT THIER HISTORY... DJEGGNOG YOU REALLY NEED A WT HISTORY LESSON. COME BACK HERE AND CALL ME OUT IN ABOUT A YEAR AFTER YOU LOOK UP ALL THESE DATES.
I'd rather call you out now. Please explain your point about the blasphemy of which you speak. You shouted a lot of things to me, but I'm not moved by any of it. You accuse Jehovah's Witnesses of lying through our literature, through the Watchtower magazine, and if you cannot prove this allegation, then that would make you a liar. I don't need any history lesson; I am quite familiar with the history of Jehovah's Witnesses before we came to be called Jehovah's Witnesses, and with its modern day history since 1935. But please explain to me how Jehovah's Witnesses have either blasphemed God's name or His holy spirit. If you should be unable to do so, then this failure on your part will prove that you are a liar, and who your father is not. (John 8:44)
@designs:
"I disagree, but ok". DJ what I laid out is JW eschatology 101 with or without dates. The Society is caught between the proverbial rock and a [hard place] by still believing in a literal 1000 year Millennium but distancing [themselves] from the 6000 year first part. Still they cling to their formula of Adam to Armageddon and then the Millennium.
What is "JW eschatology 101"? I don't know what you mean? It becomes more and more evident to me as I read your posts what things you just do not know not only what Jehovah's Witnesses teach, but what things the Bible teaches. When you talk to me, you're not speaking to someone that is brainless or unfamiliar with the Bible, nor the things that Jehovah's Witnesses teach. While I easily ignore the foolish ones on this board who are just trolling me, I do at times take the stupid things that some have said here in this thread to task for their mindless stupidity.
Forget about the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society; it is just a printing corporation staffed by Jehovah's Witnesses that we use for publishing the books, Bibles and other literature we distribute. Quite frankly, I'd like to understand what you are trying to say about Jehovah's Witnesses being between the proverbial rock and hard place. What do you mean by this? We don't distance ourselves from anything, but the world. We have no "formula."
In paragraph 32, the following comment is made in an article that appeared in the Watchtower dated August 15, 1968, entitled "Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975?" at page 500:
[N]ot until after this event [of Eve's being created after Adam] did the sixth creative day come to an end. Exactly how soon after Adam’s creation is not disclosed. "After that [Adam and Eve’s creation] God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a sixth day." (Gen. 1:31) After the sixth creative day ends, the seventh one begins."
In the context of this article, the point being made is that if the year 1975 should mark the end of 6,000 years, then one might logically expect the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ to begin at the beginning of the last 1,000-year period of God's seventh rest day. But such reasoning would be flawed in that Genesis 1:31 states that it was "after" the human pair had been created that God saw everything that he had made was very good, and only then did the sixth creative day come to an end. So what am I saying here? What does this mean? That we do not know when Adam's wife was created. Adam was created in 4026 BC, but when was Eve created?
Here's what we do know: This is 2010 and Jesus' Millennial reign has not yet begun, so if 1975 accurately marks 6,000 years since mankind's creation, then Eve's creation could not have occurred any earlier than 35 years after Adam's creation.
In saying what he does at Mark 13:32, Jesus Christ knew that we would not be able to calculate the "day and hour" because he knew one vital piece of information was unknown to us and is not revealed anywhere in the Bible: The date of Eve's creation. So we logically know that Eve could not have been created any earlier than 35 years after Adam's creation, but what if Eve was created, say, just five years later or 40 years after Adam's creation? That would then logically mean that Christ's Millennial reign will not occur before the year 2015. Or don't you understand this?
Like the above-referenced article goes on to say, "this is, therefore, no time to be indifferent and complacent. This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that "concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matt. 24:36) Jehovah's Witnesses haven't dedicated their lives to serve Jehovah until a specific year. Jesus told us to follow him, and that is what we endeavor to do, for only he (or she) "that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved." (Matthew 24:13)
@djeggnog
