Nobody forced us to believe. We CHOSE to follow their crap advice.

by hamsterbait 45 Replies latest watchtower scandals

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  ProdigalSon

  Hi Scully. I think cameo meant our Godly intuition, which is sometimes very near the surface, like when we are dealing with our children, and sometimes its buried beneath many layers of preconceived notions. If its been molded by anyone else, it's just another ego (opinion) that's been imbedded in the subconscious mind. It's not easy sometimes to sift through all those layers. It may take years of taking in knowledge combined with meditation and practice.

  There are two polarities for intelligent beings to choose from: Service to self (STS) or service to others (STO). Sheep and goats. The bottom line: Do our thoughts and intentions self others or serve the self? Is the ideology based on the best possible scenario for the good of everyone (universal benevolence) or just a select few?

  Kinda puts the worlds largest printing corporation and its leadership on the wrong side of the fence, doesn't it?

  ~PS
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  designs

  There was a brief window of time when our family might not have joined up with the JWs. 1960, my mother, who had been inactive since 1928, met some Witnesses and began to study with a very sweet sister and they became best friends. My father was very opposed but liked the sister's husband and they became friends. Friendship ruled out. My future was sealed for decades to come, no college, no environmentalism (Forestry work was a goal), the Draft, Jail time, all of the pressure to 'Reach Out' to become a Servant and Elder. The shift began when my kids were in High School and we planned for college. That was the Gauntlet we threw down to let everyone know we were going in another direction.
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  clarity

  Wow great post, & best responses ever!

  Whenever I've discussed the beliefs with some family members, in a sort of teasing way, like "don't check you brain at the door" etc ... their reponse is, with a bit of a snicker, and a virtuous..."Well, we must trust gods organization, be careful, your gonna sin against the HS you know."

  I guess ignorance has become a virtue now!

  As quoted from Terry:

  "Jehovah's Witnesses do not trust their own hearts or minds. They have been taught (biblically) to believe they are wretched sinners under a satanic assault and their only safe recourse is to explicitly follow orders without question. This is socially reinforced to seem like a virtue".

  >

  Doesn't this seem so masochistic, in a way... here's what an encyclopidia says about it:

  "Some, however, are natural masochists and continue to inflict pain on themselves by going to jobs in cubicles writing memos for bosses, returning to their apartments at night and paying bills."

  (rinse & repeat!)

  Year after year. No matter what. Even if it's wrong. Yup, just keep going!

  clarity
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  BluesBrother

  Nobody forced me to believe.... I did it, I wasted my life, I screwed up the only shot at life that God gave me....but I was a kid, brought up in it. Early dreams of having a pet lion gave way to a belief that the world could only be put right by God, and he was going to do that ..It all seemed logical to me . If God has the power then the New World is exactly what I would expect him to provide. I always had misgivings about the loss of life at Armageddon, but I shelved them leaving it in God's hands

  Terry said

  Due dilligence requires that we check sources.

  True, but how do you check it out when you are a kid, in pre internet days..The only reference books were from The WTS themselves, and they were pretty convincing. In the Financial World there was the concept of "Best Advice", meaning that a customer has to be completely informed of this, and other plans, and the up and down sides to them....That concept does not exist in religion. If you want to check it out you have to break the rules and read stuff that is banned by the authority that you want to accept as the truth..Emotion often overides reason.
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  Scully

  Hi Prodigal Son

  There are two polarities for intelligent beings to choose from: Service to self (STS) or service to others (STO).

  I agree with this, to an extent.

  Don't forget that the WTS defines service in WTS's interests to be "service to others". JW beliefs are all about Self-Sacrifice™ and working toward the benefit of the Good News of the Kingdom™ WTS. JWs are performing "service to others", but the service is misdirected, just as people who supported the Third Reich believed they were serving The Greater Good, however misdirected and manipulated they were in doing so.
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  Heaven

  JWs are performing "service to others", but the service is misdirected, just as people who supported the Third Reich believed they were serving The Greater Good, however misdirected and manipulated they were in doing so.

  Stephen Covey describes this as "having your ladder against the wrong wall".

  You may be well intentioned and you may be working very hard, but your results, if you achieve any, are not what you expected or wished them to be. Many who make it to the top of this type of ladder feel empty, dissillusioned, and lost.
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  cameo-d

  Scully:

  cameo-d writes:

  You have a conscience. And if you listen to it, you know what is right and what is wrong.

  A conscience can be molded and manipulated - just read Stan Milgram's Obedience to Authority studies. If all you've ever really known is what the JWs teach, and what you've been taught is that any thought that differs from what JWs teach is "from Satan", your true conscience is essentially silenced - you become as terrified of it as you are of demonic attacks - because listening to it and acting upon it means certain destruction if you really believe in Armageddon™. A person can endure a lot of internal ethical dilemma from their true conscience if "the greater good" is being served.

  Scully, I think it is behavior that is molded and manipulated rather than the conscience. I have thought a lot about what you said here. Certain scriptures come to mind like "train a child in the way he should go and when he is older he will not depart." I think many x-JWs have proven that scripture WRONG. And I think it was because of their conscience knowing better than to choose man made dictates. Imo, the conscience is the seat of the soul.

  The point is, children born into this DO NOT have a choice until they come to an age of understanding and until they are able to talk with others who can validate their distress. This cult puts out a lot of mixed signals and it's no wonder so many are tormented trying to understand and "perform". Sometimes the age of understanding may come later in life--it's not a year based enlightenment. And communication with others is so very important in being able to escape this trap. I think that's why the cult tries so hard to keep its members isolated from non-members and even turns its members on one another to tattle on infractions of others. It promotes a very distrustful atmosphere even from within.

  As far as the true conscience being silenced, I do believe that can happen. When a gentle soul denies their true feelings long enough, usually from being beaten down, I think they slip into an apathetic resolution and just give themselves over. But I do believe they will always carry a deep anger which they may not even recognize, and that it stems from rejecting their own conscience.

  The scriptures also speak of being "turned over to a reprobate mind". People know when they are lying and deceiving others, some choose not to care or not to give it any importance. Some even go as far as to justify wrong deeds to convince themselves. Some even get a kick out of "getting over" on the gulliable and trusting souls. These are people you would probably define as "having no conscience" because they have suppressed it and have become truly evil.
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  Curtains

  I so agree with many points in this thread particulary the degree of social control Jehovahs witnessess exercise. Can social control and culture be seen as the same thing?

  If so then perhaps Nietzsche can aid us to contextualize our situation. He said that culture has a training effect and this effect is important for development. But the person responding to cultural training also needs to be able to step back from it and say yes to any paths that he/she himself/herself wishes to explore. Stepping back and cultivating the ability to agree and disagree is very important but this is not allowed by Jehovahs witnessess. So I would say that we did not fully choose to follow their crap advice as Jehovahs witnesses do not allow members to consider other options. Everything other than Jehovahs witnesses is presented in a negative light and one is expected to live life in this negative negating way. I guess this aspect could be seen as mind control and social control.

  On the other hand by becoming a witness and remaining a witness we are exercising choice to some extent in that we are saying no to the culture around us and yes to JW culture. Or perhaps the reason we became witnesses is that we were aware of a lack of a strong sense of culture outside of witnessess. This is something to think about as many (non JW) people object to the path modernity has taken. Were we objecting to something like modernity when we became Jehovahs witnesses?
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  artemis.design

  Although born in I never believed. In order to escape my plight, at 17 I took up an Au Pair job in a foreign country, working 60 hours a week doing slave labour. No friends, no family, no money or education. Still I was free and it was the best decision I ever made. All my brothers and sisters are in, and I fear are in for all the wrong reasons.

  Arte
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  The Finger

  "Nobody forced us to believe."

  Hmmm, when I was about 20 I thought "I made the truth my own." I considered leaving it. I was on a train journey into London and I ran though all the reasons I believed it to be the truth. I came to the conclusion it was the "truth" This was some years after 75.

  In the next 15 years of being a Witness there were many things I could not agree with but I always thought it was God's organization. I tried to live my life as a JW as best I could. I believed the generation of 1914 would not pass away before the end came. I had a long discussion with my father one evening (he had served several times as an elder) that if it failed they could not be right. We concluded that it wouldn't fail.

  I had the blood issue come up a couple of times. I turned down taking out personal pension although I could have afforded it because I felt how could I believed the end was so close if I thought I might need one. A young brother tried to encourage me to go to a fine art school in the USA and my cousin tried to persuade me to go here in England. I dropped out of High School to pioneer as I thought the end was extremely close as much as I didn't particularly want too. I never every entertained ideas of being a servant or elder it was anathema to me. Later I saw it as something that was given only to be revoked as a measure of control.

  Yes I made the decisions. Was I forced? I was mislead. I wouldnt mind if there was more honesty, I lived through the 60's and 70's I know what was said. I also know how we were to view the ones taking the lead and listening to counsel. I know how people were viewed who went on to further education. I believe God will judge us all. I like the last part of Romans 14:23 "... Indeed everything that is not out of faith is sin"