by leavingwt 95 Replies latest jw friends
Band on the Run:
The inspiration for this particular thread was a statement that John W. Loftus made in his most recent book. I thought it was a provocative statement and wanted to see what others thought about it. We've definitely seen some strong rebuttals.
Christians proclaim the triune God.
The above would be a good topic for another thread.
BATR - Leaving is a respectful and sincere man. He is one of the first atheist/agnostics who taught me that they weren't all angry, and/or hating believers. Loftus (who he gets some of his quotes from - not necessarily believing them) is a bit more... um... provocative? lol From what little I've seen of him (Loftus), he seems much quieter in person in a debate, than he does on paper.
I agree with you about love being the most important thing. The driving force, as it were. I have a different opinion an a couple of things you said, though. (and Leaving had to know someone would)
Christians proclaim the triune God. They don't belittle others within the same flock.
Christians proclaim Christ. (unitarian christians are no less christian as trinitarian christians) And unfortunately, there are christians who belittle others within the same flock (not just jws).
But, imo, Christians shouldn't belittle others, period. Same flock, different flock, no flock. I'm pretty sure by the things you that write, that you think the same. But neither are Christians perfect. So this belittling and other hurtful things do happen. When they do, hopefully, we can remember Christ, repent of it and make amends. I don't think its about perfection in our actions. I think its more about perfection in our mercy.
Tammy
The hallmark of a liberal Christian is to recognize that each and every human being on the planet is on his/her own journey. We don't believe there is some strict, legalistic way to approach God or to live your life to be approved of by HIM. So, if it's your opinion that you're doing it right, then more power to you.
Christians proclaim a triune God.
Ummm... that is an inaccurate and incorrect statement, dear BOTR (peace to you!). I am a christian, by means of a anointing with holy spirit, which the Holy Spirit, my Lord, Christ, used to teach me. I such Teacher and teaching both deny that the Most Holy One of Israel is a triune God, whether alone, or in conjunction with His Son, who IS the Holy Spirit.
They don't belittle others within the same flock
True. Even my Lord did not belittle Judas, although he knew what that one was about.
A true christian will, however, "put to the test those who call themselves Jews"... and "christians"... but who are not. Even within that same flock. It is the abuse and misuse of my Lord's teaching that we are to "have love among [ourselves]" that many others have used to mislead those who follow THEM... rather than following CHRIST and him alone. They use it to compel others to accept and conform to their teachings, rather than to the teachings of the Holy Spirit. They are those who say that if you disagree you are causing "divisions", not listening to God, etc. Which may be case. But my Lord not only caused divisions, he said that following him would cause divisions, even in a man's own household.
Thus, even the apostles (and Paul) often disagreed. It is not that they disagreed that is the issue, however, but HOW they disagreed... and whether they forgave those with whom they so disagreed. THAT is what counts. Love... does not mean you agree on everything. It means that IN SPITE of your differences/disagreements... you can and WILL still SHOW love, when called upon to do so.
Again, I bid you peace!
A slave of Christ,
SA
I find it the highest delusion that a human can perfectly know the Holy Spirit. It is the Society in a nutshell. I join with the masses of true Christians proclaiming the triune God but realize that I am an imperfect human. I grope to find a solution for myself based on knowledge and experience. No one knows it all (except for Manson and the WTBTS). Isn't there an inspirational quote that may be from the Bible that we know God but through a glass darkly in this life.
I know that nontrinitarians call themselves Christian but I personally fail to see how this is a different from a HIndu or Buddhist or Muslim who may believe in Jesus as a special teacher. My experience is what makes me believe the Trinity. As I said before, both the Trinity or lack of Trinity are extrapolitions from the Bible. The Gospels and Paul's epistle (which are much earlier so I tend to believe worship statements in Paul) lack neat, precise Creeds. There is no way to understand what Paul believed or what the Jersualem group with James as head believed. My personal take is that the Jerusalem Apostles did not believe a new religion was founded. They worshipped in the Temple as Jews. Obviously, Stephen proclaimed something that was complete heresy to Jews. It is confusing. Why engage in Temple worship after the Resurrection? The apostles are completely clueless and dense in the gospels. Yet Stephen is emboldened to speak of the nature of Jesus to ignite the passions of the Jews to stone him. I don't believe Jesus as a doer of good works or miracle worker would cause a stoning. The Jews had many self-proclaimed Messiahs. Jesus did not proclaim himself the Son of Man. He is rather coy at his trial.
In any event, the lack of a defined formula for belief in Paul and the Gospels, well into the next century with John, is telling. The disputes between Paul and Peter and the discovery of the Nag Hammadi scriptures shows there was not agreement even in the years immediately following Christs' death and resurrection.
I am Anglican, which is mostly progressive. The traditions of centuries appealled to me, esp. after being raised a Witness. Compare the complex in Brooklyn to the wonders of Medieval and Renaissance Art. Michelangelo's Last Judgment contains very unflattering portraits of his enemies at the Vatican. I wept at the Sistine Chapel and looking at Giotto and Duccio. Why must every Witness creation be so bad. Music and art can reveal human truths the Watchtower writing never will. Of course, I marveled that I could be at the Vatican and Fiorenze. My eyeballs were not singed by Jehovah's wrath.
I find it the highest delusion that a human can perfectly know the Holy Spirit.
I understand, dear BOTR (again, peace to you!), but since quoting the Bible apparently isn't a problem with you, may I share the following from Paul? Thank you!
"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." 2 Corinthians 3:17, 18
I join with the masses of true Christians proclaiming the triune God
Yes. Unfortunately, a smaller "flock" of us can't join you folks.
but realize that I am an imperfect human.
As we all are, dear one, truly.
I grope to find a solution for myself based on knowledge and experience.
Why, when there is so much better, easier Way? (John 14:6)
No one knows it all (except for Manson and the WTBTS).
There is One, dear one, who knows even more than those AND it is all TRUE:
“To YOU , O men, I am calling, and my voice is to the sons of men. O inexperienced ones, understand shrewdness; and YOU stupid ones, understand heart. Listen, for it is about the foremost things that I speak, and the opening of my lips is about uprightness. For my palate in low tones utters truth itself; and wickedness is something detestable to my lips. All the sayings of my mouth are in righteousness. Among them there is nothing twisted or crooked. 9 All of them are straight to the discerning one, and upright to the ones finding knowledge. T AKE my discipline and not silver, and knowledge rather than choice gold." Proverbs 8:4-10Now, I understand that you might believe this doesn't apply to Christ, but only to wisdom in the abstract. But that is not accurate. The word used for "wisdom" is a fminine noun, which is why scholars portray "wisdom" as a female; however, the word for "understanding/discernment" is a male noun. Both are accurate as there is both male... and female... in both God and Christ. That's how Eve came to be OUT of Adham, who was made in God's image: male... and female.
But, to help you understand that it IS my Lord speaking, I offer:
“Y OU are searching the Scriptures, because YOU think that by means of them YOU will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me." John 5:39
Isn't there an inspirational quote that may be from the Bible that we know God but through a glass darkly in this life.
Yes. Do you know, though, what that "glass" is? It is a mirror... which mirror, is Christ. By looking at him... he who is NOT God but the REFLECTION of Him... we can see God. Because right now, while we are in the flesh, we cannot look on God. So, we must look at something... or rather, someone... else who bears His image: Christ.
I know that nontrinitarians call themselves Christian but I personally fail to see how this is a different from a HIndu or Buddhist or Muslim who may believe in Jesus as a special teacher.
Oh, Christ is SO much more than a teacher, dear one... special or otherwise. He is not only the Holy Spirit, but he is the LAMB of God... that takes away the sins of the world.
My experience is what makes me believe the Trinity. As I said before, both the Trinity or lack of Trinity are extrapolitions from the Bible.
Actually, the idea of a trinity, which has its roots in idol and false god worship, comes from some scribal tampering as to my Lord's words recorded at Matthew 28:19, which tampering, in order to support the teaching of a trinity, rendered the verse as:
"Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit..."
What my Lord said, however was:
"Go make disciples of me from people of all nations, baptizing them, in the name of the Father, INTO the Son... in holy spirit."
Which is exactly what the accounts show the Apostles, brothers of my Lord, and Paul did.
The Gospels and Paul's epistle (which are much earlier so I tend to believe worship statements in Paul) lack neat, precise Creeds.
Indeed.
There is no way to understand what Paul believed or what the Jersualem group with James as head believed.
I disagree: there is a Way, but only One... and only one means by which he reveals it:
"These things I write YOU about those who are trying to mislead YOU . And as for YOU , the anointing that YOU received from him remains in YOU , and YOU do not need anyone to be teaching YOU ; but, as the anointing from him is teaching YOU about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught YOU , remain in union with him. So now, little children, remain in union with him, that when he is made manifest we may have freeness of speech and not be shamed away from him at his presence. If YOU know that he is righteous, YOU gain the knowledge that everyone who practices righteousness has been born from him." 1 John 2:26-29
My personal take is that the Jerusalem Apostles did not believe a new religion was founded.
They did not believe a new religion was established, but a clarification, correction, and fulfillment of the Laws of the old one.
They worshipped in the Temple as Jews.
Yes. Better Jews... because they had now been set free from the Law by means of the NEW Law. Thus, they no longer had to worry about transgressing the Law... but got back to the ROOTS of being Israel and Abraham's seed... which was shown by SURPASSING the Old Law... through by fulfilling the NEW Law... of love. For love is the Law's fulfillment.
Obviously, Stephen proclaimed something that was complete heresy to Jews.
Well, yeah. It's like a JW telling others JWs that they don't need to attend meetings, or go out in service, or place magazines, or wear suits and skirts. Because NONE of that makes one spiritual or proves one righteous. But, like the temple priesthood and its ritualistic washing and giving of the tenth and observance of festivals... all the while stepping over your brother, let alone your enemy, dying in the street... JWs believe that such things make them "clean" and "righteous." The same with other "christians" who put their national loyalties over their spiritual loyalties.
It is confusing. Why engage in Temple worship after the Resurrection?
Because (1) that's where the Jews were, (2) they were NEVER directed or sanctioned to stumble the Jews, to the contary, in fact; (3) my Lord told them to remain until HE told them to flee; which (4) evidence when they saw "the disgusting thing standing in a holy place." Which didn't occur until the Roman occupation, some 40 years later.
The apostles are completely clueless and dense in the gospels.
Perhaps. But it isn't them that we're supposed to be listening to anyway, is it? (Matthew 17:5; John 10:1-10, 27; John 7:37, 38)
Yet Stephen is emboldened to speak of the nature of Jesus to ignite the passions of the Jews to stone him.
And what so emboldened him? Was it not the holy spirit that he had received from Christ, the Holy Spirit? They weren't stoning Stephen - they were attempting to silence the Spirit... which Spirit they could not receive.
I don't believe Jesus as a doer of good works or miracle worker would cause a stoning.
Well, it depends on the results of such doing, doesn't it? And whether those who cast the stones realized what they were doing... or were being used by another?
The Jews had many self-proclaimed Messiahs. Jesus did not proclaim himself the Son of Man. He is rather coy at his trial.
Yes (although, he did acknowledge that they were calling him a blasphemer because of who he said he was)
In any event, the lack of a defined formula for belief in Paul and the Gospels, well into the next century with John, is telling. The disputes between Paul and Peter and the discovery of the Nag Hammadi scriptures shows there was not agreement even in the years immediately following Christs' death and resurrection.
Which is why LOOKING for agreement among THEM... is... well, what truly IS the purpose? Isn't it CHRIST we're supposed to be looking at/to?
I am Anglican, which is mostly progressive. The traditions of centuries appealled to me, esp. after being raised a Witness.
Traditions... yes. Appealling, indeed. Always have been, haven't they? Take care there, dear one...
Compare the complex in Brooklyn to the wonders of Medieval and Renaissance Art. Michelangelo's Last Judgment contains very unflattering portraits of his enemies at the Vatican. I wept at the Sistine Chapel and looking at Giotto and Duccio. Why must every Witness creation be so bad.
I don't quite know what you mean (i.e., so bad) but I can say that I have yet to see a piece of art that has caused me as much... well, emotion... as Michaelangelo's Pieta. Not what it depicts, but the very piece itself. Every intricate line and detail. I have a black in white photobook on my coffee table and I can look at that thing for hours... and still see something I missed the last time. I consider Michaelangelo's art one of the wonders of the world, of man, of the creation (along with many others). I marvel that one can take a rough piece of stone and bring forth such... well, beauty doesn't do justice. There is no word. Or put oil, charcoal, watercolor, whathaveyou, to canvas, cardboard or other medium and create a product that even the real thing doesn't appear to equal. Or play an instrument (as some here do). I can't do any of these things. But I most certainly am appreciative that some can!
Music and art can reveal human truths the Watchtower writing never will.
Oh, I wouldn't limit that to music and art, dear one - LOLOLOLOLOLOL! The WT will NEVER reveal truths, beyond it's one or two very tiny pieces of knowledge (which it must recycle again and again).
Of course, I marveled that I could be at the Vatican and Fiorenze. My eyeballs were not singed by Jehovah's wrath.
My husband says he longs to see Paris. Knowing him, I think he'd most likely turn into a puddle in Rome, Florence, and Venice. So, I intend to take him there and personally see it done, one day.
Again, peace to you, dear BOTR!
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
I don't appreciate my comments chopped up piecemeal. Would you like some smug person to break up your statements and proclaim their truth. Not an objective truth, for certain. Rather, a truth that can only be gleaned by one person. You do not speak for me. Further, you do have my permission to correct me. What are your credentials? It seems nutty Jehovah's Witnesses come here to act in other nutty manners.
I give you no credence. Also, I wish no conversation with you. You do not determine what I believe. The Holy Spirit does not revolve around you. Neither does the Bible. Countless generations of Christians have confronted these issues and come to much more eloquent and honest explanations. The best minds of Western civilization have struggle with the different aspects of God. It is sick for someone to think they have it all solved in a short, not very illuminating statement.
I devoted my life to civil rights but that does not mean I have to endorse racists, bigots, and stupid people. If you are enthrenched here and continue to cut my comments up, I can easily leave. This is not civilized discourse. Rather, it is hazing. And I have zero apetite for hazing involving the Bible.
I don't appreciate my comments chopped up piecemeal. Would you like some smug person to break up your statements and proclaim their truth.
Ummm... meant no offense, dear BOTR (peace to you!). This is my usual way of responding... and I do so so as to NOT misunderstand, misquote or misstate what YOU write. I think you deserve what you stated to responded to fully.
Not an objective truth, for certain.
Actually, it really was.
Rather, a truth that can only be gleaned by one person.
Do mean that because it isn't familiar to you or resounds with you, it isn't/doesn't with anyone else, as well? If so, how can you state that?
You do not speak for me.
Absolutely not. I don't believe I tried to, though...
Further, you do have my permission to correct me.
I'm thinking you mean do not...
What are your credentials?
How do you mean? I mean, I have a law degree, but I don't think that's relevant here. Here, I am only using what I received from my Lord, Christ, the Holy Spirit... by means of an anointing with holy spirit. Should there be something/one more/else?
It seems nutty Jehovah's Witnesses come here to act in other nutty manners.
I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, dear one. Was, but haven't been for about 15 years, now.
I give you no credence.
Okay. No problem. I take no offense.
Also, I wish no conversation with you.
Okay, then this will be the last, no problem. If you're not 100% sure of that, however, may I ask, just what is it that I shared that caused you so much... well, offense and consternation? I realize that you might not like my... approach/style... but wisdom would say that while one might not like the teacher... or the presentation... it might be wise to at least listen to what they've said before taking offense, yes?
You do not determine what I believe.
Absolutely not. Never had such in mind...
The Holy Spirit does not revolve around you.
Certainly not. For one, he does not revolve. Around anything and certainly not me. But he does speak... and sometimes to me.
Neither does the Bible.
Same thing. Some believe it "speaks", too. I used to think that. Then I came to know that it's just a book of pages, with some truth... and some not so true things... written in it. So, because I couldn't know what was or wasn't on my own... and those who purported to tell me obviously didn't know either... I decided to go to the Source (at least, as far as that Source is the One about whom much of it points to/"speaks" about)... or rather, ask that he become known to me. The rest, as they say, is history.
Countless generations of Christians have confronted these issues and come to much more eloquent and honest explanations.
If you say so, dear one. I am sure you believe that.
The best minds of Western civilization have struggle with the different aspects of God. It is sick for someone to think they have it all solved in a short, not very illuminating statement.
Perhaps. Or perhaps they're just foolish enough to believe that God's Word is not a book, but a person, His Son (which is what the book says)... and is the Holy Spirit (which is what the book says)... and is ALIVE (which is what the book says)... and speaks (which is what the book says)... and gives holy spirit to whomever he chooses (which is what the book says)... which ones don't choose themselves (which is what the book says)... and so by means of such spirit teaches and leads such ones (which is what the book says)... into ALL truth (which is what the book says)... including about himself and God. Which is what the book says. Maybe those "minds" you're speaking of haven't read the book. Or maybe they just didn't/don't understand what they read... because he didn't open it up TO them. Which is what the book says he did for his disciples then... and would do now. So...
I devoted my life to civil rights but that does not mean I have to endorse racists, bigots, and stupid people.
Sorry, not sure of the correlation... wait... you think I'm endorsing atheists, by means of just trying to "expound the way of God more accurately" to YOU? Goodness, I hope not. That wasn't the case at all.
If you are enthrenched here and continue to cut my comments up, I can easily leave.
No, please, don't leave. Neither I or what I have to share is so important that I would want to drive you away. I did not understand that you would so easily be, well, offended, even to the point of leaving, but you don't need to do that, truly. This can be our last interchange, absolutely.
This is not civilized discourse.
You're most probably right. I do not doubt that some would consider me uncivilized, but it's really just my style. Again, I did not want to misunderstand, misquote, or misstate what you stated, so I simply tried to address all that you raised. My apologies for confusing and offending you.
Rather, it is hazing.
Really. I did not intend that or see that that's what took place. But I certainly trust that you would know so, even if I didn't, so...
And I have zero apetite for hazing involving the Bible.
Me, too. Which is why I don't do it, truly. But, okay, we can be done, if that's truly what you wish. Again, I bid you peace... you and your entire household.
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
I just so happen to have my J.D. from NYU School of Law. The school awarded me a full merit scholarship. Frankly, I have much contact with lawyers and I have never come across a single one who expresses themselves the way you do.
I disagree with your content but I adamantly object to your attitude.
I just so happen to have my J.D. from NYU School of Law. The school awarded me a full merit scholarship. Frankly, I have much contact with lawyers and I have never come across a single one who expresses themselves the way you do.
I disagree with your content but I adamantly object to your attitude.
