We all die, so why bother with Jehovah if the worst is annihilation? (page 5)

Perry

dgp,

Sorry for calling you a hypocrit. You are an anarchist. I assumed (apparently wrongly) that you would want Madoff to be judged & punished. This is the position for annihllationists: you're either a hypocrit or an anarchist. Unless of course you change the common definition of God as being omni-benevelent.

This is the unbeliever's dilemma: The moment you allow for ANY judgment of others, you must live a life of hypocrisy if you deny the reality of God's impartial judgment for yourself. If you deny the rightfulness of the judgment of others, like Madoff in our example; then you are promoting anarchy and are yourself an enabler of evil.

If you run into the cave of atheism to try and escape this problem, your problems just get bigger as you assume the universe appeared from nothing, for no reason, without any supporting evidence whatsoever for this conclusion.

InterestedOne

If you deny the rightfulness of the judgment of others, like Madoff in our example; then you are promoting anarchy and are yourself an enabler of evil.

There is a difference between judgment for a civilized society in the here & now versus some kind of cosmic judgment after death. I think a person can accept the rightfulness of judgment of others in the here & now to live a civilized life, but still have their doubts about the existence of some kind of afterlife judgment without being a hypocrite or anarchist.

Perry

There is a difference between judgment for a civilized society in the here & now versus some kind of cosmic judgment after death.

Atheist. Either God doesn't exist (which requires faith), he's evil for not judging and thus enabling (which would negate God's Omni-Benevelance) or he judges in accordance with that omni-benevelence.

InterestedOne

Atheist. Either God doesn't exist (which requires faith), he's evil for not judging and thus enabling (which would negate God's Omni-Benevelance) or he judges in accordance with that omni-benevelence.

I'm not ready to call myself an atheist just yet. I'm still working through a lot of things.

To be fair, I re-read my comment above and realized it was irrelevant. Sorry about that. I see you were speaking in a general sense when you said:

This is the unbeliever's dilemma: The moment you allow for ANY judgment of others, you must live a life of hypocrisy if you deny the reality of God's impartial judgment for yourself. If you deny the rightfulness of the judgment of others, like Madoff in our example; then you are promoting anarchy and are yourself an enabler of evil.

That is, you are saying that if a person doesn't like the idea of a God who judges, they must want anarchy, in a general sense. As soon as that person says someone else ought to be punished by God, they become a hypocrite. Sorry I misunderstood your point.

bohm

Atheist. Either God doesn't exist (which requires faith), he's evil for not judging and thus enabling (which would negate God's Omni-Benevelance) or he judges in accordance with that omni-benevelence.

in which case you must believe he does not exist because he is not omni-benevalent in the bible...

Perry

In order to "judge" whether or not God displays omni-benevelence, you would have to be omni-benevelent yourself..... having explored all that is possibly good and it's fruit and declaring yourself as good. This would also require Omniscience.

Sometimes doctors haved learned to allow illnesses to ripen or mature like cataracts, before they are cut away and new sight is restored. An ignorant person may see the man suffering with the cataracts and falsely conclude that there are no doctors around. The wise man would maybe ask a few locals if this is so before concluding.

The gospels promise a knowing of your own salvation once a person is born again:

1 John 5: 13 - that ye may know that ye have eternal life

Atheists have no such promise of revelation. Once a believer receives this after being born again, he doesn't wonder whether or not God exists, these are questions the unregenerated entertain. He is given PROOF directly from the Source, and then goes on "prove to himself what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God" as he walks and interacts with God on a daily basis. This is possible because that man is no longer God's enemy, having made peace through the blood value of Jesus' substitutional death in his place (not Adam's), and disowning himself as the New Testament Contract with God requires:

Luke 14: 31 - 35

"O r what king , going to make war against another king , sitteth not down first , and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand ? Or else , while the other is yet a great way off , he sendeth an ambassage , and desireth conditions of peace ."

Jesus is the King with twenty thousand, we are the "king" with only 10,000. The Romans were very practical and if the lesser king would simply pay the Roman tax, they could get the Roman war mechine to protect them from barbarians and everybody could go home. No so with Jesus; since his offer in the exchange is total, so is his price:

"S o likewise , whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath , he cannot be my disciple .... He that hath ears to hear , let him hear . "

Only in this case can a person actually know what is good, having experienced and tested that omni-benevelence inside himself after the "new birth".

This is what happened to me and to millions of others that have taken up Jesus' offer to make peace with God. I am now much of the man that I always wanted to be thanks to the grace of God, and not due to any effort of my own.

"... not of works, lest any man should boast".

designs

Don't you just love the Calvinistic/Lutheran claptrap 'unregenerated' geez.

'Christianity' has one of the worse records of any religion in regards to human rights violations, centuries worth. If we could eventually see the Society was a cult for its false predictions and harsh treatment of its followers, what could possibly be the conclusion of Christianity over the centuries where millions upon millions of innocent people lost their lives to this group. Cult Inc..

This is what happens when ideologies are built on false premises Perry. Verse 33 from the Luke passage is the classic example of a Cult in the making.

bohm

perry: "In order to "judge" whether or not God displays omni-benevelence, you would have to be omni-benevelent yourself..... "

Remember last time we had this conversation? How can we establish if God is omni-benevalent, and not simply a very powerfull, supernatural entity like Zeus?

Secondly, very carefully, you want me to believe God can only be omni-benevalent because YOU have resieved revelation (how did that happend physically? Did you hear or see things?)?, when i should not accept such evidence were it in favor of another God.

Perry

Remember last time we had this conversation? How can we establish if God is omni-benevalent, and not simply a very powerfull, supernatural entity like Zeus?

Again,

"In order to "judge" whether or not God displays omni-benevelence, you would have to be omni-benevelent yourself..... "

You historically have a great deal of trouble with the common definition of "God". Definition: Omniscience * Omnibenevelent * Omnipresent

This is the God spoken of in the title of this thread, not Zeus. Stay on topic. Or, you can start a topic on Annanuki Space Daddies Maybe we came from them.

Of course, you can believe whatever you want; I offer my experience as confirmation of the biblical promises, which I have experienced; contrasted with years as a 4th generation JW whereby I received little revelation, no changed personality, no rebirth ... nada but rules and failed performance.

(how did that happend physically? Did you hear or see things?)?

You already know how this knowing occurs, you've read it and I've explained it to you before:

"The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God". When God speaks truth into a person's spirit, it appears as instant knowledge. And it is felt not in the head but in the spirit of a man. If I was pressed to give a bodily location, I'd have to say in the chest.

Also, God speaks generously through his written word.

designs

'I Jesus shall burn you with unquenchable fire' St.Luke ruunnnnnnn, its a Cult

We all die, so why bother with Jehovah if the worst is annihilation?

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