Paul, leading authority on Christianity, does NOT quote Jesus!

by Terry 204 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    It is a facinating but again frustrating challenge trying to figure out just what Paul actually believed. Key is to first identify what are genuine Pauline texts and what are later deutero-Pauline works as wholes and then what are interpolations. This is a huge undertaking already. Then trying to place his own shifting theology into some neat category is fruitless. His theology was indebted to earlier Christians who certainly shared more vocabulary with those labled Gnostic than Jewish Christians but saying simply he WAS Gnostic is an oversimplification. It is also a mistake to lump a whole range of theological schools as "Gnostic" or to assume they all had identical views on the historicity of a physical Christ, or anything else for that matter. The lable is in many ways a derisive moniker from the later Orthodoxy.

    Paul possibly had some sort of 'sayings traditon' he drew from but he was quite adament that he received nothing meaningful from others but rather was a one man font of inspired messages. Even the communal meal was not, according to Paul, inherited from other Christians but given him through private inspiration. In other threads we have discussed the secondary nature of aspects of the last supper story in Luke et al. that appear to have been a harmonizing redaction to the Pauline version. Anyway a discussion of this sort needs to be broken down into much small topics to be constructive

  • designs
    designs

    'Paul' sounds terribly close to others that followed the personal inspiration mode of development in theology such as Joseph Smith and Fred Franz.

  • Liberty93
    Liberty93

    Paul invented much of what we now think of as Christianity wholecloth. Any HONEST reading of the letters of Paul followed by an HONEST reading of the gospels will show that they have an entirely different focus, and that was on the law, on outward conduct and actions, as well as judgement.

    Paul came to subvert what Jesus had taught by replacing his gospel, his "good news" with the worst imaginable news possible by changing the immediate possibility of experiencing holiness and divinity as a lived reality and the proclamation that all divisions between God and man had been torn asunder into a shadowy cultic belief that only found its fulfillment "in heaven," or "after death, " or, if you will, in Paradise.

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    Some of these comments only show a lack of knowledge of NT teaching. For example, why would Paul only repeat what had already been spoken of in the gospel? There would be no reason to include these in the canon. 2 words sum it all up: Progressive Revelation. The NT builds upon itself. Of course there were new things that Paul had to deal with in the 1st century church. Jesus said at John 16:12-15:

    12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    These things were revealed to Paul. But progressive revelation seems to be something that passes over the heads of alot of people...apparently..

  • just n from bethel
    just n from bethel

    An Fundementalist Christian says .2 words sum it all up: Progressive Revelation.

    A JW says 2 words sum it all up: New Light. (Or light gets brighter),

    Thanks for the reminder of what leaving the JW mindset is really about. Some are able to do it - others, it takes a little while. Not to worry, you'll come around as you mature.

  • Liberty93
    Liberty93

    Jesus never says anything about "progressive revelation," particularly revelation which is different in emphasis from what he himself taught.

  • designs
    designs

    Read through Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews and come up with a list of points that tip you off to 'Paul's' bigotry and agenda. There is a reason why 'Paul' and for that matter 'Jesus' never have prolonged encounters with the Rabbis of their day revealing the broader scope of Jewish learning.

    Think about it, and you will know where the GB and Christian Leaders are coming from.

  • ProdigalSon
    ProdigalSon

    Many people seem to be under the misconception that gnosticism is some sort of religion. Granted, there have been some bad-ass gnostics, and even the Illuminati can be called gnostics, but it is not some defined dogmatic set of doctrines. It simply means that knowledge comes from within. In the case of Paul, I can give you two examples of why I say he was a gnostic, within a couple of verses of each other. In Galatians 4:19, he states that "Christ is formed in you". In verse 24, he unambiguously states that the entire story of Hagar, Sarah, and the "Jerusalem above", who is our "Mother".....

    .....is an ALLEGORY!!!!

    This is pure gnosticism!

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    Paul was an apostle to the nations - Gentiles.

    I don't believe he would like being referred to as a "leading authority on Christianity."

    1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 And then this: We can tell you with complete confidence—we have the Master's word on it—that when the Master comes again to get us, those of us who are still alive will not get a jump on the dead and leave them behind. In actual fact, they'll be ahead of us. The Master himself will give the command. Archangel thunder! God's trumpet blast! He'll come down from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise—they'll go first. Then the rest of us who are still alive at the time will be caught up with them into the clouds to meet the Master. Oh, we'll be walking on air! And then there will be one huge family reunion with the Master. So reassure one another with these words. The Message Bible

    Is the above a reference to the Master's words at Matthew 24:30-31?

    There is so much to learn if we allow ourselves to do so.

    Syl

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I was taught that gnosticism runs through the cluster of religions in that area. Gnostics thought physical creation was dreadful, a hell. Within every person a divine spark lives. For those who have secret knowledge, they can escape the illusion of reality and commune with the true Sprit God. Creation occurred through a very lesser God. The true God is spirit. They believed Jesus only appeared to be real. He was more of a spirit guide. Unlike the transcedence in Judaism, and modified by Christianity, Gnosticism believes we have divine nature that must be tapped.

    I only read tons and tons of Christians gnostic writings. As I mentioned, many of the sayings and stories are the same as in what emerged as orthodox Christianity. This reassures me that Q or some loose canon of Jesus tradition existed at a very early date. It is fascinating how such different world views emerged from the same sayings and stories. I have not been exposed to Jewish gnosticism. Pagels mentioned another religion that I can't recall. Perhaps it was just Greek thought, embraced by the Romans. I also question whether Gnosticism blurred the edges between the groups. If what Jesus did wasn't real, esp. the crucifixion and the resurrection, do the Christians blend into Jews blend into Greek beliefs.

    Gnosticism despise the trap and prison of our physical bodies. Gnosis was the answer. I often have feelings that deep within myself there is more than appears in this world. There feels as though there is more to me than just intellecutal knowleldge, feelings, socialization.

    Pagels made the point that Gnosticism did not sustain itself for more than a few generations. It targets the elite. Slaves and laborers would probably not find it an attractive belief system. Tell a slave being beaten to death than the physical world is not real. She also pointed to the desert fathers. Even the baby boomers turned corporate in time. She felt that the beliefs and structure of what became orthodoxy was the most sustainable over time. Orthodoxy won in the marketplace of ideas.

    Christians had to write letters to each other frequently. I wonder why Paul's letters survived. After growing up a Witness, I despised Paul. The most beautiful, soaring scripture made me want to vomit from overuse and manipulation by the Witnesses. His core message is love and grace. I only heard all the moral bon mots that were not his. I refused to read his letters even for class. His treatment of women truly triggered me. I thought he was vile. I became Anglican and read some Protestant theologians, Tillich, Barth, Boenhoffer. Their views were radically different from WTS so I finally read Paul in normal fashion, not the Witness jumping. I was utterly shocked. Now I love Paul.

    He seemed extremely insecure about his Christian credentials. It seems as though half his time is spent touting his being better than James and Peter. Sometimes I wonder if something else not mentioned was happening. He doth protest too much to quote Shakespeare. Maybe that argument was common among writers during that time period. I don't know.

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