by proplog2 57 Replies latest jw friends
I wonder proplog2 if you show the same zeal for objectivity for priests who are accused of molesting children or lay people of another religion? Did you know that child molesters are so poorly thought of in prison that they generally suffer terribly at the hands of their fellow inmates? Bet one good theory may be that many in prison started out in life as sexual playthings to some twisted moron.
Julie, who has literally risked life and limb to confront child abuse as it happened
proplog2,
I agree that we need to make sure false accusations are not acted upon. I don't think false accusations happen that often, but I also don't believe it never happens. There are too many vindictive ex-spouses out there willing to instill a false idea into a child for it to never happen.
However, you cannot deny that there is a real problem in the WTS on this issue. Those of us who have seen the problem directly know that reforms are needed. Just making one change, having the person who brings to accusation of abuse go directly to the police and not the elders, would make a big difference. The police are in touch with experts on the subject, unlike the elders, and can help ferret out the tiny percentage of false accusations while simultaneously punishing the guilty. Some of us have seen admitted molestors get away with a light sentence from the elders while the police were deliberately kept out of the picture in order not to "put a bad light on Witnesses." Enough!
Proplog,
here's the dilemma. is it better to save many children from abuse, even if some innocent people may be hurt? Hard question.
As someone who has supported silentlambs on a few occasions I too have an informed opinion (of course if it is my opinion it is the right one) on the man.
Bill has gained NOTHING except harrassment, threats and a boatload of heartache for having the courage to speak up. His business has suffered, his family has made huge monetary sacrifices as well as sacrifices of quality time he was previously able to spend with them.
You want to question a specific case, Proplog, then provide evidence. Bill, is one of the finest people I have ever met and I personally resent you attacking him personally.
You deserve every bit of shit that comes your way from others on the forum, Proplog, because you stir it up and stuff your face in it continually!!
Proplog-
Although I am not a child molestation victim, these incidents can and do happen within the org. What really fries me personally with JWs is that they never want to acknowledge that something unjust or unfair happened within the cong. 9 times out of 10 the first thing that comes out of their mouth is "well, God's org. is not perfect". Like that excuses everything. JWs who have never experienced the "bad" side of the org. always have a generalized reason why we should not be angry with people's "imperfections".
Granted, we do not want to be habitual complainers over trivial matters, but I personally have been the victim of incompetent Elders. When I protested what was happening I was bascially told that if they were wrong Jehovah would take care of it. I can see where victims can be contiually victimized by the JW judicial system. Joelbear summed that point up well.
In my personal observation as a JW for 20 years, the Society takes little to no responsibility when it comes to the errors of themselves or those they have put in a position of responsibility within congregations. It is ALWAYS our fault as lowly publishers because WE don't have the "right" attitude or WE don't have enough faith in Jehovah. If you listen to the talks given on these issues, what is the general theme? It is always about what WE need to be doing as, the general publisher in the cong. We should not stay angry with those who have offended us. Basically, we are advised to become rugs.
Some of this is good advice, yes. But if you notice, it is NEVER the Society's fault. That is my point. I have taken responsibility for my mistakes over the years. This is the right thing to do. But when I had a complaint about certain Elders who were basically a joke, and I am talking blatantly a joke, I was told that because I was a woman, to stay in my place for one, and that even if they were wrong, God would take care of it in the end.
Again, no responsibility.
The result? Continually victimized by the JW system. And, we had better not complain either. I am not saying that it is all bad, but personally, I think a major overhaul is needed in the way situations are handled. There are good Elders out there, but many are on power trips. Maybe it will change someday, who knows!
Just my thoughts! Thanks.
Vita
Proplog2,
Oh yes attack not only the victim, but attack someone trying to protect these silent lambs too. You really must be a wonderful human. To bad you as a child have never had the pleasure of being raped by an adult that you trusted, or have you? Maybe if you had something thrust up your ass that didn’t belong there, then perhaps you would understand things a little clearer.
Religious bias aside, exactly what standard would you propose we use to investigate these alleged rapes. Are you suggesting we continue to use the Watchtower methodology of asking the alleged perpetrator “did you do this” and if he says no, we turn to the victim and say “sorry you don’t have two witnesses”, “oh and remember not to say anything bad about this man, don’t warn anyone else”. “Remember he must be treated like an innocent man because you did not produce two witnesses”. “Oh and one last thing, try and warn anyone else and we will disfellowship you, everyone you know will shun you, and in the end God will kill you too”.
Yes the Watchtower investigation and justice model has worked so well hasen’t it, (NOT!). The ball is in your court Proplog2, what do you suggest sport?
Freeman
Joel, I recommend you call Bill and talk to him. Then you will see that his main focus is the victim!! Anyone who knows him, and who talks to him knows this. But, he has other issues too. He isn't a "one trick pony", so to speak. He has a wife and kids and a business, and a life!! So, naturally other things affect him too. The phone number is on the silentlambs web site.
AlanF hit it right on!! I was a silentlamb too, and it is hard to finally get the memory back, agonize for years about telling, and then when you do, people throw the false memory crap at you. Fortunately, this guy was still molesting, and got tricked into admitting his long ago past, with me and almost EVERY GIRL IN THAT CONGREGATION, IN MY GENERATION. I think he is dead now, and good riddance.
People like propolog who feel they have to defend these jerks, just make me sick.
I think this whole discussion highlights the dangers of black and white thinking. Proplog2, you have an important point to make about false accusations and false memory - but to use that in the way you have, to cast doubt on the majority of abuse cases, is an outrage.
During the 1970's and 1980's, I worked with dozens and dozens of abuse victims in congregations in at aleast half a dozen states. I can vouch for what Seeker and Silentlambs commented on here - many, many of these cases have been handled terribly by elders and the WTS. In many cases that I was involved with personally, I saw the victims simply further victimized by the bodies of elders involved. There is a serious problem here, and it has to be addressed, and that is what Silentlambs is doing in a way that no one else has dared attempt.
Are there also cases of false memories and people who have lied (knowingly or otherwise) about abuse? Certainly. There was a time when all sorts of cases of Satanic Ritual Abuse were coming out. A sister told me that there were seven sisters from different backgrounds in her congregation who had suffered from SRA. The odds of this actually being true were simply beyond my ability to believe, and an indication to me that people were "remembering" things that have simply not happened. And there have been some important court cases in the US that have shown that accusations, even by a number of people claiming to be "victims," can at times be false.
BUT - does this mean that we should simply dismiss the majority of allegations of abuse, as Proplog2 did, questioning 99% of them?? That is simply a really, really stupid over-reaction. It's as unreasonable as the false allegations he's trying to attack.
The answer lies in investigating for the truth, and dismissing the allegations that simply cannot be true, while following through on the real cases of crimes being committed. This, of course, is the cux of the problem among JWs, as Silentlambs has shown, and many of us know is true from firsthand experience.
The Witness way of dealing with abuse, where it is handled the majority of the time by men who have no idea what they are doing, tends to punish victims of abuse and hide abusers. Drawing attention to the deep, deep flaws in the WTS's judicial arrangement is an important issue, and I applaud Silentlambs for doing it.
S4
proplog2, Take off your Dub-blinders!
The JW's are not "Gods Organization" ,read their history!
Why are you so suprised, they would be involved in a cover-up?
They have lied about almost every important teaching, do I have to bring them up?
This thread is a textbook lesson in the inability of people to interpret what is clearly written. It is no wonder that newspapers screw up stories on a regular basis.
Calling into question the claims of victims is not taking the side of perpetrators. So far we have our "hero", Mr. Bill, making that claim. What really surprises me is our resident "logician" AlanF acting irrationally. Yes my statement was hyperbole. And since I'm not REALLY the molester AlanF keeps asserting, I should probably take his statement as counter-hyperbole. But there is truth to my statement. Lawyers stand to make money in this endeavor. Victims are encouraged to wallow in "victimology" as a way to sharpen the broomhandle whose real destination is some kind of symbolic butt-poking of the Watchtower.
I never said that 99% of the claims of molestation are false.
I estimated that 99% of the people on this forum are one-sided on this issue. Judging from the comments here I may have to lower that to 80%
I am all for conviction of REAL molesters. There seem to be plenty of them. I don't believe that the uniquely private nature of this crime justifies the bending of the usual rules of evidence. It has not been proven that Children can't lie.
I am all for giving victims the counseling they need to change their perception of their experience from something "horrible and terrible" into something that was "unfortunate". This is the goal of counseling. It is the difference between a scar and a festering wound.
There is a part of me that wants to see the Watchtower organization get whooped for their arrogance. But the fair side of me says this ain't the issue.
