Ignorance of Silent Lambies

by proplog2 57 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  TR

  Promolester2,

  It is assumed that if you aren't for the Silent Lambs cause then you are automatically and advocate of child molestation.

  Yeah, so?

  Seriously, How many child molesters are out there that are unknown by authorities? Never been accused? I know of one. I wonder for how many molesters are accused, how many are there that aren't accused?
  Any data for that? I wonder if it's similar to adult rape data that I've read recently. For so many reported rapes, there are so many more that go unreported.

  My belief is that there is a lot more child abuse going on than we know about.

  TR

  "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
  --Benjamin Franklin, 1759
• 

  waiting

  Howdy plog,

  I am all for giving victims the counseling they need to change their perception of their experience from something "horrible and terrible" into something that was "unfortunate". This is the goal of counseling - plog

  I would have to argue that point - I thought the goal of counseling was to have the person adjust, accept, deal with crap....and learn ways to cope, eventually *move on*. This would in no way actually diminish from "horrible and terrible" to "unfortunate."

  He might be able to set aside the emotions - but it happened. To say that it's just "unfortunate" diminishes the person and his experience. It was "horrible and terrible." It should not have happened - but it did.

  The learning to adjust to an altered state of perception of himself, people, love, hate, children, imho, should be the goal of counseling. But after dealing with this crap actively for 15 yrs now.....it is not "unfortunate." It's "unfortunate" that my cat got run over. It would not be "unfortunate" if I slit my cat's throat for fun. That would be "terrible and horrible."

  It's not "unfortunate" that my dad raped me for 20 some years. That was "horrible and terrible," but can - and continues to be - dealt with. But it will never become an "unfortunate."

  You condemn persons for their supposed improper use of words ----- you also show an alarming lack of proper use for triggering phrases. You don't know your subject matter, imho.

  Btw, I've read E. Loftus's book on the Myth of Recovered Memories (something like that) - goes into more detail, some good points. But it also shows some invalidity into the ways she conducts her "experiments." She also has (or had) a vested interest in the False Memory Foundation - not being just an objective doctor. I've also read Van der Kolb's books - some good points also. It's wise to research both sides of the argument.

  I would suggest that if you want to delve into this with some real percentages, showing the difference between correlations versus proven facts......do some more reading, on both sides.

  There is no emotion, imho, that this issue does not touch - no physical sense that hasn't been violated. It is also dealing with memory - which is not completely understood. It deals with religion, politics, money and power. Since it's so complex - and the effects so devasting, shouldn't that be a primary reason not to take this crime and it's effects down to "unfortunate?"

  waiting
• 

  AlanF

  Proglog2, you keep getting yourself in deeper with your idiocy. Now you resort to lying.

  You clearly wrote:

  ::: The child abuse thing is just a bunch of lawyers trying to make money, victims who refuse to move on with their lives, and ex-elders who would like to beat up someone because they lost in a local power struggle.

  What do you think "is just" means? That there are other possibilities than what comes after those words? Not at all -- unless you're a complete moron with the English language. And because you're not, we can only conclude that you meant precisely what you wrote.

  Having had evil called down on you for this, you now resort to the standard method of excuse of those caught with their hands where they shouldn't be -- lying:

  : This thread is a textbook lesson in the inability of people to interpret what is clearly written...

  We will let readers decide "what is clearly written" by you.

  : Calling into question the claims of victims is not taking the side of perpetrators.

  That's right, moron, as long as you don't call into question the claims of all victims. Your statements leave no doubt that you've issued a blanket dismissal of all such claims.

  : So far we have our "hero", Mr. Bill, making that claim.

  By dismissing all claims of molestation, that's exactly what you've done.

  : What really surprises me is our resident "logician" AlanF acting irrationally.

  Really. Show how your statement above about "just a bunch of lawyers..." can be interpreted any other way than the way it's written.

  : Yes my statement was hyperbole.

  Bullshit. It obviously reflects your deep seated convictions, because you keep defending it.

  : And since I'm not REALLY the molester AlanF keeps asserting,

  How can readers tell that from your words?

  : I should probably take his statement as counter-hyperbole.

  Given that I don't know you from a hole in the wall, that's right.

  : But there is truth to my statement. Lawyers stand to make money in this endeavor.

  Yeah. So?

  : Victims are encouraged to wallow in "victimology" as a way to sharpen the broomhandle whose real destination is some kind of symbolic butt-poking of the Watchtower.

  Bullshit. Mr. Bowen resigned from his position as elder for one and only one reason: his observation of long-term mishandling of child molestation on all levels of the Watchtower organization that he came in contact with.

  You once again make it obvious that you're still very much a JW at heart, and suffer from major symptoms of "my religion right or wrong". Have you no empathy for victims? Clearly not. You've made this obvious in every post.

  Joelbear, I know your head is on crooked these days, so I'll cut you some slack. But do get some help.

  AlanF
• 

  proplog2

  Waiting:

  My substitution of the words "unfotunate" for "terrible and horrible" is according to the Rational Emotive Therapy technique. The words you use in talking to yourself (actually "thinking") about a problem have a lot to do with your emotional reaction. Ellis suggests using the words "very difficult" as a substitute for "impossible". Something that is "terrible" suggest an event that is "impossible" to deal with and results in shutting a person down. There is a wide range of reactions to rape etc. depending on a persons particular temperament or constitutional make-up. Healing involves these sublte changes in the vocabulary we use in thinking about the event.

  Another sublte bit of self-talk that can keep the wounds open is the use of the word "should". You mentioned "it should not have happened" referring to your father. Albert Ellis would say that you should substitute the words "it would have been better if...my father wouldn't have abused me." Should or shouldn't suggests an absolute state of affairs. If in fact something shouldn't happen it doesn't happen. Ellis' techniques are not univerally effective - no therapy is - but the RET (Rational Emotive Therapy) model is used by a lot of counselors.

  When lawyers try to get money out of an institution or rich person in a civil suit they have to manipulate the jury into thinking that what happened to their client is horrible and permanent. They want the jury to believe that an ordinary day in the life of the victim is living hell and therefore deserving of commensurate compensation. Institutions are targets because they have money. Lawsuits try to associate responsibility to the richest entity in the chain so that the whole effort is worth the time.
• 

  proplog2

  AlanF.

  Easy killer. I was expressing my opinion in a way that would get attention. Silent Lambs web-page is a reckless exhibition of opinion with no regard for "all-ness".

  As with most opinion I agree that there are elements of the "nothing but.." fallacy. So what.. it's an opinion.

  Are you thinking about turning in that naughty hand yet? Which is it? Your left or your right?
• 

  Mommie Dark

  Cruel, insensitive, and typically insular in thinking, like all good dubbies.

  You said, "They want the jury to believe that an ordinary day in the life of the victim is living hell and therefore deserving of commensurate compensation."

  Got news for ya asshole. An ordinary day in the life of the victim IS living hell and therefore deserving of commensurate compensation." Unless you've been one, you have no reason to comment on how victims are affected daily by the effects of their trauma.

  You truly are a clueless and heartless bastard, Proplog. Your empathy and compassion are equalled only by your decency. You could put them all into a thimble and still have room for your pointy little head.
• 

  joelbear

  Alan,

  Yeah, I know, if you dare to disagree with the crowd you've simply got to be a nutcase.

  Don't cut me any slack. Don't waste yours and my time insulting me and expecting me to engage in a name calling session like you do with others. I'm not interested.

  I did not state that I had facts. I stated that I had opinions. Provide me with facts or reasoning for me to consider to change my opinions.

  Spare me the condescension. Bill has put himself in a public position and has taken on a huge responsibility. He can see me as some moron trying to cause him trouble and dismiss me or he can say, gee maybe I should think consider his comments as possibly valuable simply because he has proven he is not a yes man and has given no indication that his intention is to openly oppose giving assistance to the victims of abuse.

  That's up to him to decide. I offer him criticism not for the sake of criticizing but because I care about the issue.

  Peace

  Joel
• 

  ianao

  proplog2 said:

  Silent Lambs web-page is a reckless exhibition of opinion with no regard for "all-ness".

  What a damn joke. Bowen didn't put up his site to have a balanced debate on the validity of child molestation, he put it up to help victims of child molestation.

  And quit this "all-ness" bullcrap. You're just pissed because of the bad light the WT/CCJWs are put in.

  What is the big damn deal with going to the police to report possible child molestation instead of some bonehead elders REQUIRING TWO WITNESSES TO AN EVENT THAT HARDLY EVER HAS TWO WITNESSES!?

  What? The Cong might look bad? Bad light on witnesses? SCREW THE CONGREGATION! Today's potential molestees could be tomorrow's potential molesters. Children are the future.
• 

  freeman

  Proplog, It appears I was correct when I inferred in an earlier post that unless and until such a time you yourself are held down and received a good stiff one up the ass, you would never get the point of what it is like to be a victim (pun and profanity unavoidable). I only wish I could hire such services for your education; I would make it my gift to you.

  You waste nothing but Internet resources, move on you Watch Tower troll, move on.

  Freeman
• 

  waiting

  Hey plog,

  Thanks for the response - and I understand Ellis point - to a point.

  Another sublte bit of self-talk that can keep the wounds open is the use of the word "should". You mentioned "it should not have happened" referring to your father. Albert Ellis would say that you should substitute the words "it would have been better if...my father wouldn't have abused me." Should or shouldn't suggests an absolute state of affairs. If in fact something shouldn't happen it doesn't happen. Ellis' techniques are not univerally effective - no therapy is - but the RET (Rational Emotive Therapy) model is used by a lot of counselors.

  The raping of any child shouldn't happen.
  It would have been better if my father hadn't raped me.

  Nope. I disagree. The raping of any child shouldn't happen. It does happen. We're not talking subtle in this thread - we're talking rape & molestation of innocent children.

  By the way, you do realize that you said; "Albert Ellis would say that you should substitute the words ...." Does this mean that by your use of "should" as to why Ellis says I "should substitute," you're actually saying "it doesn't happen" in my case? Like a construed look at double negatives in a sentence?

  Ellis' techniques are not univerally effective - no therapy is -

  I would agree on that one. However, I refuse to accomodate the thought of a child being held down by a person perhaps outweighing them by 100+ pounds and being raped & beaten as an "unfortunate" event for 20 years. It is a terrible thing. "Terrible" is a defining word - agreed. But it's not ultimately self-damning. I've had terrible haircuts - but they grew out, thankfully.

  When you come forth with the news that you, or your child, has been savagely beaten, raped, pets slaughtered - if you wish, I'll agree with you that it's just an unfortunate event or life style. But, deep down? I would feel that it's terrible and you shouldn't have had to go through that - no child should. But they do - and some survive. And they have the right to speak outloud about those things - again, and again, and again. Perhaps changes will come about.

  waiting