A Bethel Memory #17 - False advertisements for a fake future that will never happen

by LivingTheDream 42 Replies latest members private

  • LivingTheDream
    LivingTheDream

    False advertisements for a fake future that will never happen

    I was a young man at Bethel about 30 years ago, back in the early 80's and the one place I could get away with saying almost anything was on the factory floor. Sure, you had your congregation, your table mates, and your room mates and so on, but you pretty much had to be careful about what you said with these people, especially regarding JW dogma. But, with the guys you worked with every single day, other young guys just like you with no real authority or importance, well, you could pretty much get away with postulating anything.

    In this environment, we often had many a discussion about Bible doctrine just to pass by the many boring hours. Sometimes, the nature of the job allowed more than one of us to be in close proximity of each other for hours on end, so, we had lots of time to discuss nonsense and trivia, hopes and dreams and so on. So, when something popped into our heads, we just talked about it. It didn't matter what it was about. Sometimes when we argued or disagreed on something, we would bring something up again later, even if we had already discussed it, just to goad each other on into continuing the fight. It was fun to make each other mad if we could; it was boys being boys.

    One day the discussion came up about the Earthly resurrection. One Bethelite stated quite confidently that if you died and were resurrected to Earth, you could not be married again and definitely could not have children. This was the current understanding of that time by all JWs. I forget why it was brought up, but this issue bothered me quite a bit as I had hoped some day to get married and have children. However, most Bethelites agreed with this brother even though others stayed quiet about it taking a more neutral stance. Those that agreed with this brother took their stance based on two things: 1) Luke 20 where Jesus said those in the resurrection "will neither marry nor be given in marriage" and 2) because the Society said so.

    I said flat out that they were all wrong.

    So, when I pressed them on this issue further by putting an extreme example in front of them, these folks concluded that if you were to die during the Great Tribulation, even if you died protecting Bethel and the entire Governing Body (Christ's Brothers) you would not be able to marry in the Earthly resurrection. This would be the case even if after your death Armageddon came only a few hours later and wiped everything clean for a new Earth. When your sorry behind came back, you could not marry and you would of course never be able to have children either. Too bad, so sad. Forget about that family you always wanted. Maybe you should have told the evil doers where the faithful slave was hiding in order to save yourself instead.

    I thought this was patently unfair and was more than a little miffed by it because they were also saying something else that was huge: NO SEX FOREVER! How could it be Paradise without sex? When I brought that up they said Jehovah would take care of that for us. I wondered aloud to them if God would zap us with an anti-horny ray or something. They just laughed.

    So, we had a traditional doctrinal back and forth debate on this subject. I brought up arguments like the New Testament really being written for people going to heaven and Jesus showed this by usually speaking in heavenly terms like using the phrase "Born Again" for example. I also pointed to the part of "they can no longer die but are like angels". All of these things told me Luke 20 was about a heavenly resurrection. I even pointed out that if we could not get married, then we would be alone and it was God himself that said in Genesis that it was "not good" for man to be alone. This didn't add up to Gods original purpose for man which was to have companionship for life. They gave me the typical Aid Book responses at that time and were not swayed. Nope, they said, if you die before Armageddon, you cannot get married in the New System nor have children. Period. Case closed.

    So, I decided to try a different way to argue this. I am paraphrasing here what I said to these stubborn Bethelites:

    Me: Show me the latest Watchtower magazine and Paradise Earth book. [They bring me one each]

    Me: What pictures do you see here when paradise on Earth is depicted? How are the people shown and how are the comprised?

    Them: [discussion result] Well, we see happy smiling people, mostly youthful looking people together and some children.

    Me: OK, so mostly people together, that is couples. And children there too? This is the Society's idea of paradise Earth regarding its people there and this is how they show it all everyone who hopes to learn the Truth?

    Them: Yes.

    Me: OK, so next, how many people will make it through Armageddon alive as couples, together? Your best guess and approximation. [understand I was under the impression then like all witnesses that only witnesses would be saved.]

    Them: [some discussion] Millions. After all, "millions now living will never die" is a classic.

    Me: Really? Well, first of all, I'm talking couples, not just anybody. So, of approximately 3 million Witnesses alive today, you are saying that most of them are couples and most of them married to each other and most of them will make it through the worst tribulation in Earth's history intact, together, as couples? You want to try that again?

    Them: [more discussion] OK then, maybe only hundreds of thousands, a half million couples, a million people, tops will be in the new system.

    Me: OK. Fine. Now, how many people will be resurrected to Earth then? Remember, righteous and unrighteous. Discuss.

    Them: [after some discussion] Well, there are estimates that we have had 8 to 10 billion people that have lived so far in history including the billions now. So, we guess billions in the resurrection, since most of these probably never had a chance to know God. So, maybe 5 to 6 billion people coming back or even more.

    Me: OK, so you are saying maybe six thousand million, that is, 6 billion, will be resurrected?

    Them: Yes.

    Me: Then given those things, why does the Watchtower and PE book and most other Society publications always depict paradise mostly as couples together? With children no less?! Isn't that misleading since most people at that time will be alone, never to be married and never to have children? Billions resurrected alone and only a few hundred thousand couples will be fortunate enough to be married and have children! These few by the way only have this privilege because they were fortunate enough to be alive at the right time in history and not die during a horrible "great tribulation" as well? So, in Paradise, if most will be resurrected and only a few not resurrected, then aren't all these pictures in our literature about the New System just false advertisements for a fake future that will never happen?

    Them: Whoaaaaa.

    Me: To me then, it's like The Society is promising one thing to hook people in, then teaching an entirely different thing once they got them. That's classic bait and switch if you ask me.

    Them: [nervous murmuring, low talking and head shaking]

    SILENCE

    ---

    I was with a friend of mine later who was also one of the guys in this factory discussion. We had continued the debate on this subject in private when we both happened to run into George Gangas together. Now I knew this particular Governing Body member had a mind of his own, so I took a chance. I brazenly asked him right on the spot what he thought about this subject. I asked him in a way that I thought would be provocative and he responded in a way that was even more so, in a way I'll never forget:

    Me: Brother Gangas, in the Earthly resurrection, will Abraham be married to Sarah or not?

    Gangas: [getting all dramatic as he used to be quite a theatrical character] Ahh, well... first, what do you think brother?

    Me: I think death severs the marriage union, but that upon an Earthly resurrection, we would be free to do again as we please. I think God will allow Abraham to marry Sarah again if he wants to and if she is agreeable as well.

    Gangas: [very dramatically in his Greek accented, old man voice] When Abraham opens his eyes in Paradise, he will immediately say "Where is my beloved Sarah?!?" And, upon seeing her he will run to her to hold her in his arms, to hug her and be with her as he always did, since he was only asleep! He just woke up! But, Jehovah, upon seeing Abraham approach Sarah, says to him "No, No, No, Abraham! YOU... SHALL... NOT... TOUCH.... HER! FOREVER!"

    Gangas: [stopping for even more dramatic effect, then waving his finger in the air] If Jehovah did such a thing... HE WOULD BE A TYRANT!

    I thanked brother Gangas and then looked over at my friend with my eyebrows raised. He smiled and looked down, shook his head and said nothing.

    LivingTheDream

  • FatFreek 2005
    FatFreek 2005

    Excellent argument which I have never heard. That's thinking out of the box.

    Len

  • NVR2L8
    NVR2L8

    Great post LTD...

    This question about not marrying in Paradise and never having sex was a great concern for me since I was a teenager in the late 60's...Growing up I never had the desire to remain single to pioneer or go where the need is great. As far as I can remember I wanted to replicate what my father and mother had - a happy marriage and family life. I wanted a good job, to marry and have children. As 75 was closing in I was feeling more pressure in taking steps not to enter paradise as a single man. In 73 at the age of 19 I married much to the chagrin of many in our congregation. How could I ignore the WTS warnings and not dedicate the last few months of my life in this old system in the full time service. Several other young people also got married, but when the end didn't come in 75, many of them divorced. Last month my wife and I celebrated our 37th wedding aniversary. We have 2 grown up children and 2 grand children. How glad we are that we didn't follow the direction of bitter old men. I realy feel sorry for those who didn't have any children thinking the end was close and now find themselves old and all alone.

  • LivingTheDream
    LivingTheDream

    FatFreek,

    Thanks man. As a kid I just looked at the literature and it screamed to me that marriage, sex, kids and so on was what most people wanted. Sure, some don't, but most do, and the Society knew that.

    But then those darned Faithful Slave people said to me later that wasn't going to happen for most people.

    Didn't seem fair.

    LivingTheDream

  • LivingTheDream
    LivingTheDream

    NVR2L8,

    Wow, you're another example of somebody doing what you knew to be right for yourself, in spite of the pressure coming from our "brothers" and being better off because of it. Good for you.

    I knew people who sold their houses in '75, sold everything and died broke and childless. Pitiful.

    I myself wanted to wait to finish college, get my career going, buy a house and have some money in the bank before getting married. I did that in spite of the pressure against it and looking over my shoulder at an ever imminent Armegeddon.

    LivingTheDream

  • NVR2L8
    NVR2L8

    Today the organization is once again lowering the boom on higher education and saying the end is so close - like in 75. Still some are getting married, having children and buying houses...it's only a question of time when the WTS comes down on those who want to live a "normal' life. A sign of this was a statement heard at the last DC: stay far away from those who say that the end is not near.

  • LivingTheDream
    LivingTheDream

    NVR2L8,

    I never did see the purpose in delaying anything you wanted to do, college, marriage, whatever, even IF the end was near. So what if it was near? Should you stop living life just because of that? Do you stop exercising? Do you stop going to the doctor? Do you stop getting haircuts? Do you stop brushing your teeth?

    I want to tell my own story about higher education in a future post. I'm going to call it: "You can lead an elder to college, but you can't make him think"

    LivingTheDream

  • WingCommander
    WingCommander

    Another great story from your past, thanks!! I gotta say, ol' Brother Gangas' response is truly honest and sincere, and really tugs at your common sense, doesn't it? Yet, it completely contradicts what Jesus said in the bible (about not marrying, nor being given in marriage) and yet at the same time also doesn't meet up with the Society's own doctrine, does it?

    Looking and thinking about it outside the box, does make one wonder though: Does Christendom have it right? What do I mean by that? Well, I have been told that alot of mainstream Christianity feels that when people die, they go to heaven, but are awaiting Armaggedon and the return to earch as a paradise as well. Then, at some point in the future timeline, they will be "resurrected" into fleshly, human bodies as well. I think 7th Day Adventists believe this, that you will have a perfected "spirit body" and also a "perfect human body" which you can go back in forth between, much as Jesus did. After all, wasn't he our "example?" So imagine, being able to atomize into a perfected human body when you want to, in order to experience the wonders of Paradise Earth, but yet also, "be like the angels" which Jesus foretold?

    Does this sound crazy to anyone else? I hope not, because this is what I almost believe, and it seems to synch with the Bible in several ways.

    Regards,

    - Wing Commander

  • LivingTheDream
    LivingTheDream

    WingCommander,

    That is an interesting idea, but I never thought of it that way before myself. I honestly don't know what to believe any more. I used to think I knew so much about the Bible and had all the answers. Of course, most JWs do. Now that I'm not a JW, I am still trying to figure it all out. I guess I spent so many years searching and researching, debating, arguing and fighting about doctrine, the only thing I am 100% sure of now is that I am weary from it.

    I know some on this board really dislike the GB and I understand why and don't blame them. But I tell this story for a number of reasons. One reason is to show that Gangas wasn't like most of the other GB. He wasn't perfect, but he was a reasonable man. I tell lots of stories about him because I knew him quite well. I actually look back on most of my memories of him relatively favorably and this was one that made me happy to know him. He often bucked some of the JW doctrinal issues and this was a prime example of that. I realized then as a kid too that the "Governing Body" wasn't this monolithic entity that moved as one unit at all. They were just a bunch of old men.

    I tell this story too because even as a kid I began to realize the Society was a bit misleading in doctrinal issues and this was an example that bothered me quite a bit. I actually carried this story around with me all over Bethel later on to anybody who would listen and they mostly got annoyed with me and ignored me.

    LivingTheDream

  • Open mind
    Open mind

    I've ambled down that path many times but never put the numbers or individual human heartache to it like you did.

    Brilliant!

    Thanks for all your posts.

    om

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