Some Questions About Jesus

by Coded Logic 53 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Viviane

  The Babylonian Talmud 43a IS talking about the Jesus of the bible. Remember the Pharasees accused him of in Matt 12:24-27?

  I didn't it wasn't talking about the same guy, I said it doesn't describe him. For instance, it says he had five disciples, contrary to the Bible. It says he was stoned and then hung, contrary to the Bible. It says he was held while they called for witnesses and waited forty days, contrary to the Bible. The names of his disciples are not those found the Bible. He was killed by the Sanhedrin, not the Romans, contrary to the Bible. He was killed for religious crimes, not the the crime of sedition as recorded in the Bible.

  So, the ONLY similarities are Jesus, Jewish and some disciples. More details, major details, differ than agree. Maybe it is talking about the same man, but it is certainly largely disagreeing with the Bible on most major points.

  As I said, it's describing something wholly different from Biblical Jesus.

  Same for 107b, these sources are showing how those who killed Jesus viewed him. Now what you must ask yourself is why aren't they denying such a man ever existed?

  107b describes a Jesus that was a disciple of Jesus b. Perachiah, was sent away for mis-translating a text and for thinking about a woman too much and who later turned to idolatry, worshiping fish.

  That's not the Jesus of the Bible by any means.
  
  

  Here are more...

  If you are going to steal from Wikipedia, at least have the decency to credit them.

  • Jesus as the son of Mary (Shab 104b, Sanh 67a)

  I am not going to address the entire list, but this one is laughable. There is nothing in the Talmud that says Jesus mother is Mary. It DOES mention someone NOT Joseph as his father and somewhere else mention Mary is that man's lover. That's it.
• 

  Viviane

  Really? Which of the jews wise king did they murder then?

  Really. He never says which one he is thinking of.

  What did the sign post on Jesus cross say? John 19:19 if you forgot.

  It certainly doesn't say "Wise King". Jesus never WAS king, in any event.

  Mara Bar-Serapion refers to Jesus as the “Wise King”:

  He refers to A wise king but never names him or otherwise indicates he in talking about Jesus. Your claim is 100% untrue.
  
  
• 

  EndofMysteries

  mocking christians not talking about Jesus

  
  

  Not talking about Jesus? Who is the man he says they worship? Who is the distinguished personage who introducted their rites and was crucified? Who was their original lawgiver?

  “The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.” (Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13)

  
  

  
  
• 

  EndofMysteries

  He refers to A wise king but never names him or otherwise indicates he in talking about Jesus. Your claim is 100% untrue.

  
  

  He said, "Their Wise King". Not "a" Wise King. The sign on Jesus cross said, "King of the Jews". Tell me another historical figure that non Jews place among names such as Socrates that the Jews had murdered and could be considered a wise king? O and in context, he was talking about the catastrophes that happened after said events. What happened in 'the generation' that saw Jesus killed to Jerusalem? So who else matches those descriptions since you claim since he didn't specify the name, Jesus, that it can be somebody else?
• 

  Viviane

  Not talking about Jesus? Who is the man he says they worship? Who is the distinguished personage who introducted their rites and was crucified? Who was their original lawgiver?

  Just because I mock Juggalos doesn't mean I've once mentioned ICP. Similarly, that text mocks Christians and doesn't say Jesus once.

  He said, "Their Wise King". Not "a" Wise King. The sign on Jesus cross said, "King of the Jews". Tell me another historical figure that non Jews place among names such as Socrates that the Jews had crucified and could be considered a wise king?

  First, he never said "crucified", so attempting to associate "crucified" with "executed" is disingenuous at best. Secondly, Jesus was crucified by the Romans, not Jews. Third, he NEVER mentions Jesus. You saying he does is completely untrue.
  
  
• 

  EndofMysteries

  First, he never said "crucified", so attempting to associate "crucified" with "executed" is disingenuous at best. Secondly, Jesus was crucified by the Romans, not Jews. Third, he NEVER mentions Jesus. You saying he does is completely untrue.

  I fixed crucified before you had replied, but yes he said murdered. Now as for the Romans killing him, the Romans were an instrument. Who called for this death? The Romans didn't just grab Jesus and kill him on their own, it was the religious leaders of the Jews who coerced Pilate into doing it. Pilate washed his hands and obviously scholars of that time put it on Jews.

  IF the 'wise king' who the Jews murdered, then their city was ABOLISHED shortly after, was not Jesus, then who was it? Was socrates a figment of the imagination? Mara is asserting that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD happened not too long after the murder of the Wise King of the Jews. As he did disasters that befell those who killed Socrates. So if it's not Jesus, who else fits the bill?
• 

  Viviane

  I fixed crucified before you had replied, but yes he said murdered

  He said executed, actually.

  Now as for the Romans killing him, the Romans were an instrument.

  The Romans killed him.

  Who called for this death?

  Pontius Pilate, the only Roman at the time and place that could.

  IF the 'wise king' who the Jews murdered, then their city was ABOLISHED shortly after

  The text says "kingdom was abolished", NOT "city". Jews had no kingdom at the time Jesus was killed, nor was he ever king.

  Mara is asserting that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD happened not too long after the murder of the Wise King of the Jews.

  Mara never once said any such thing. You are literally making that up.

  As he did disasters that befell those who killed Socrates. So if it's not Jesus, who else fits the bill?

  An actual king who was executed and whose kingdom was shortly thereafter abolished. None of those match Jesus.
• 

  EndofMysteries

  The names of his disciples are not those found the Bible. He was killed by the Sanhedrin, not the Romans, contrary to the Bible. He was killed for religious crimes, not the the crime of sedition as recorded in the Bible.
  So, the ONLY similarities are Jesus, Jewish and some disciples. More details, major details, differ than agree. Maybe it is talking about the same man, but it is certainly largely disagreeing with the Bible on most major points.

  This is all about a historical Jesus, not about the accuracy of the bible as we have it today. But whether there was a real historical Jesus. As for who killed him, the Romans may have carried out the deed, but it was the Sanhedrin who ordered it. Unless you can find any historical documents talking about a man like Jesus that ALL jews embraced and that none of them were calling for him to be put to death, but that the Romans themselves did this, then it stands it really was the Jews responsible for it. Even the ancient contemporary scholars as my previous posts show they believed that as well.
• 

  EndofMysteries

  Off to an Easter party now, I'll get back to this tomorrow. Good debate though.
• 

  Viviane

  This is all about a historical Jesus

  I've not debated whether a man named Jesus existed. In fact, many did and that is quite well established. It was a rather common name.

  not about the accuracy of the bible as we have it today.

  It's well established it is NOT accurate.

  As for who killed him, the Romans may have carried out the deed, but it was the Sanhedrin who ordered it.

  According to the Bible they ASKED for it. Big big difference. The Sanhedrin didn't have the ability to order the Romans to do anything and that IS a historical fact.

  Unless you can find any historical documents talking about a man like Jesus that ALL jews embraced and that none of them were calling for him to be put to death, but that the Romans themselves did this, then it stands it really was the Jews responsible for it.

  Sorry, that's not how it works. It's a fact that, according to the Bible, the Romans killed Jesus, that it was their decision. There no actual historical documents about a man like Jesus at all, and the quasi-semi-historical documents we do have is clear that the Jews asked and the Romans agreed and did the deed.
  

  Even the ancient contemporary scholars as my previous posts show they believed that as well.

  You've not quoted any scholars, but rather religious texts promoting a clearly false and contradictory point of view.