This is continued from another thread in which Psacramento and I were having a friendly discussion...
This was the original question he posed:
PS: And what proof would be enough for you? what evidence would be enough for you?
SBC: A perfect creator wouldn't be obsessed with being loved or worshiped as that, by definition, contradicts perfection since it represents a fundamental need on his part.
PS: While man wrote that God demanded worship and Jesus himself quoted the commandment, did Jesus, the Word of God, ever show obsession with it? for him or his father?
It's hard to debate someone who picks which parts of the Bible are accurate and of divine origin. I find it odd that an omnigod would endorse or permit the writing of a very important message, but then allow parts of it to be corrupted, presenting him an an unpleasant light. Which parts do you accept as authentic, accurate, and conveyed by God? The Gospels? Jesus reiterated the "first commandment" at Matthew 22:37, stating that man MUST LOVE GOD with all heart, soul, mind, strength.
If it weren't a need, he wouldn't even ask, let alone command it.
SBC: There would also have to be some bridge between the gap of his superlative love and his willingness to let man suffer for the sake of his good name. (As a father, I hate to share my title with the Judeo-Christian god. Good parents don't drown their children.)
PS: You make a valid point and Genesis does imply that the floods were sent By God, of course according to ancient man, everything was sent by God so perhaps a "grain of salt" is in order.
Gosh, that makes it hard to know which parts of the Bible are trustworthy. Once again, this is something I'd hope a Supergod would resolve well in advance for the sake of his uber important message.
SBC: This divine and uber-important message would have to transcend time and language barriers with NO CHANCE for loss of quality. Everyone would understand the message the same way, as there would be ZERO room for interpretation. Human language seems ill-fitted for such a task.
PS: True, but what other way do you think God could have sent his message WITHOUT forcing it down anyones perverbial throat?
Not sure how a clear message would be forcing anything. But according to popular view, those who don't accept the message will be sentenced to hell. How is that not forcing down our proverbial throats?
SBC: ALL mankind could understand it without even learning to read and ALL mankind would have access to at ANY time.
Sound like being forced to believe in soemthing...
See previous comment.
SBC: It wouldn't be transmitted in such a way that caused geographic partiality. Citizens of country X would not be at a disadvantage (because of isolation/environment) while citizens of country Y are taught it's message from birth.
PS: The universal truth of God is present in virtually every region, what people choose to do with is is up to them.
There are at least 15 countries listed at this site in which the Muslim population is 99.5% or higher. Let's be realistic: most of them will not get the chance to qualify for heaven by popular Christian opinion that I've heard. http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_islam.html
SBC: Evidence would be preserved for every single miracle (fairy tale). Since the "doubting Thomas" was supposedly allowed to demand evidence that he could test with his eyes and hands, the rest of us should have the right to expect the same evidence before we believe hearsay.
PS: God doesn't need or want you to believe because of miracles, the choice is yours.
So why was it ok for Thomas to demand evidence? His request was granted - why can't I ask the same? You're brushing me off here. This is a big reason I can't believe in the Judeo-Christian god(s), which was the thrust of your question to me: What proof would I need?
SBC: There would have to be numerous examples that the bible writers had specific fore-knowledge that ONLY a creator of the universe might have. This would be conveyed in clear, unambiguous terms. Again, no room for interpretation and no self-fulfilling prophecy.
PS: Why? to prove what?
It would help establish that the scriptures weren't just written by goat-herders.
PS: to WHOM?
Some of us cannot afford to buy things on faith. I'm broke. :-D
SBC: It would be clearly established and verifiable by multiple independent, unbiased sources as to the date a prophecy was conceived and also verifiable by multiple independent, unbiased sources as to the date the prophecy was fulfilled. There would be ZERO room for debate on any prophecy.
PS: Unbiased? How?
Scientific method. Peer review, by those who have nothing to gain in supporting it. Unanimous agreement. Those are just a few ideas.
SBC: This wouldn't prove anything but it would've been nice to have this simple idea passed on at the very beginning: "Handwashing is one of the best ways to prevent the spread of infection and illness." For bonus points, he would've given us the scientific method in Genesis.
PS: Ok, a valid point, common sense not being very common I guess that God should have reminded people to do that, though it seems we did find without THAT "divine revelation".
Tell that to the folks who died from communicable diseases simply because they didn't know about hand-washing.
SBC: The "commandments" would focus on compassion and love for fellow man instead of emphasizing devotion to a self-absorbed creator. These would also speak VERY CLEARLY against sexual or physical abuse of a child; rape; slavery; torture; kidnapping; or abuse of one's mate. (Too bad those weren't important enough to be mentioned, eh?)
PS: WHile I agree that the commandments could have been more complete, 600 Laws came after that too and look at the mess they made. I will give you that as I agree that they could have made more of a statement, though if they did I don't know how that would prove the existence of God.
I'm only talking about the Bible god(s) here, just so you know. That the fundamental moral laws stated above are missing from the "law" tells me the Bible is a product of primitive man and nothing more. A just, loving god who truly cared would have ensured such things were covered.
SBC: God's voice would be audibly heard each day by everyone and a verbal answer would confirm whether or not a prayer was being answered.
PS: See, here is the thing, we it's fine to think about the things that would make US believe in God, the fact is that ALL those things you listed could be revelaed through personal revelation and it wouldn't matter one single bit to anyone EXCEPT the person they were revealed to.
I'm just explaining what would help prove the Judeo-Christian god's existence to me. Thus far, I have not received a revelation.
PS: No one would believe them anyways, we've seen enough proof of that. The fact is, short of God appearing and laying down the Law and Kaiboshing any and every doubt, there would always be people that don't believe. And for GOd to do that, would make him a dictator that took aways free will.
Yet, even now, that shoe fits.
PS: That said, EVEN if God did that, even if Christ ruled for 1000 years of love and peace, there would still be those to rebel against God and the one thing that Revelation does hit "nail on the head" is THAT.
How can you be sure? If he made himself known to everyone and actually ruled as the omni-everything he claims to be (love, justice, wisdom, power), why would anyone want to rebel and die?
PS: I submit that the very proof that most doubters WANT is the very proof that God may never gove because the he truly would be a dictator God and since God wants all to come to him with love and free choice to coem to him, that will probably never happen.
Let's go back to the example of Thomas... why did he get his request for proof and I do not?
I submit that it is because "God" - if it exists - is not anything like we think, nor does it intervene in our affairs.