Neverending Story.. (just another Bible/God debate)

by SweetBabyCheezits 42 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    ..ducks in a barrel..

    A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
    He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
    Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
    If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maran-atha
    These things I command you, that ye love one another.
  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    And they accuse me of selective interpretation and "chery picking scripture" LOL !

    While it is easy to view the term commandment as an order, that is not what Jesus meant or implied, it can be a command, a charge even a rule to live by.

    Look at the context of what Jesus says and does and notice that he says thise AFTER he washes the feet of his discipiles.

    34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

    When you read this, does this sound as an order? a military command? really?

    I don't see it.

    Look at the context:

    15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be a in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”

    22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

    23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

    25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

    28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

    Obeying the command comes FROM Love, not love from the command.

    As for Matthew, Mark and Luke:

    Jesus was asked what was the greatest commandment and he replied to those ascking in the way they would understand and agree.

    But keep reading and what do we see?

    They agree with Jesus, it was a test and he passed it would seem but lets take mark:

    28 One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, “Which commandment is the first of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; 30 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 Then the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that ‘he is one, and besides him there is no other’; 33 and ‘to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength,’ and ‘to love one’s neighbor as oneself,’—this is much more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 When Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” After that no one dared to ask him any question.

    Notice that Christ said that he was not far from the kingdome Of God, insinuating he had more to learn.

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    So you want us to believe - based on your own personal authority - that when Jesus said 'These things I command you, that ye love one another.' It wasn't a commandment, there was no implied punishment for disobeying (i.e. you could get to be with God if you didn't love.)

    Amazing. The words are in front of you and you deny them.

    I cannot debate with you any longer on this topic as you are not using language that is recognised by any dictionary I am familiar with.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    So you want us to believe - based on your own personal authority - that when Jesus said 'These things I command you, that ye love one another.' It wasn't a commandment, there was no implied punishment for disobeying (i.e. you could get to be with God if you didn't love.)

    We are BOTH expressing personal opinion, neither of us has ANY authority, you do realize that right?

    I don't recall Jesus imply any punishment...sorry.I won't go into Grace since that was details by Paul, but I don't see any punishment, yes Jesus says that God will love those that love him and Christ and in obeying we show our love, but I guess that punishment CAN be implied here.

    Amazing. The words are in front of you and you deny them.

    I understand them differently, that is all.

    I cannot debate with you any longer on this topic as you are not using language that is recognised by any dictionary I am familiar with.

    I apologise for not being able to express myself clearer.

  • whereami
    whereami

    Qcmbr I completely understand the fustration one has when discussing these topics with a believer.

    At the same time I will say that if all believers were like Psac and Tec for example, it would be alot easier.

    Even though I can not agree with them on these matters I appreciate and respect their strong convictions.

    Kudos to them.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    I think that sometimes "you guys" view our personal interpretations and opinions as "gospel", perhaps it was too much infulence under the WT, I don't know, but the fact is that I am jsut stating a personal opinion, interpretation and understanding, no more or no less and I don't ask ANYONE to agree with me at all.

    You ask an opinion and I will give you one, and it's as right or as wrong as what it is.

    If you guys are truly looking for these absolut answers then good luck, truly.

    BY the way, in my circle of friends and class mates and people I knwo, this "view" that you attribute to me is far more common than the "fundamentalist" views that you guys seem to have, views that untill I came HERE, I was never exposed to.

    Truly.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Let me ask you guys soemthing, when you come acorss and issue in the bible, what do you do?

    I for one take that issue and research it.

    I will research it via the bible, commentaries, books written about such an issue, comments about it, net articles and I not only research A view, by the counter view as well, I will ask a rabbi or a priest or a scholar or a researcher or a scientist or a professor for their view.

    I will study what I have researched from the multiple sources and try my bets to come to a conclusion, even if it is one I don't like.

  • superpunk
    superpunk

    Let me ask you guys soemthing, when you come acorss and issue in the bible, what do you do?

    The same thing I do when I find a plot hole in any work of fiction. Try to move on and just enjoy the story.

    just kidding, I don't read the bible anymore. I already know how it ends.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    LOL!
    That was freaking awesome !!

  • SweetBabyCheezits
    SweetBabyCheezits
    SBC: So, Tammy, to determine which parts of the Bible are trustworthy, you're saying we must first accept some parts at face value and then base the rest of our judgment on that which we've accepted without question?
    TEC: Well, if I'm just going by the bible, I take what Christ says and measure everything against Him - which I can further measure against love.

    Then that is where our paths part.... which is okay because neither of us condemns the other.

    I'm just sharing my reasoning: If I don't trust that the Bible was authorized, compiled, recorded, copied, preserved, and translated under the guidance of the very God featured in it, then how can I extract ANY segments from which to judge the rest. It should all be equally suspect until proven genuine.

    How can I know the words I'm reading in the Gospel accounts are from Jesus at all? If other parts of the bible have been corrupted by imperfect man, I can't just assume the verses containing "Christ's words" have somehow been innoculated from corruption.

    But if I accept on faith that his supposed words are true, that would be circular reasoning, because that faith must start with knowledge... and that knowledge must come (directly or indirectly) from the record in which we learned "Christ's words" - the Bible.

    But none of this debate really matters because, when you get down to it, we really just speak different languages. You and Psac can come to grips with a lot of Bible discrepancies because you speak in terms of faith. I don't 'speak faith' anymore. I suppose I could again someday but it would take a fundamental layer of reason and evidence to place that faith within my reach again.

    What I truly appreciate is that you guys are not judgmental. You have your faith but your reason has made room for tolerance as well. For that, I salute you.

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