Neverending Story.. (just another Bible/God debate) (page 2)

SweetBabyCheezits

sbc, dude your either very very patient or very obstinate :) how many months did it take you to become atheist? or days? did it just clicked on ur head?

hey, CJ - el conquistador, I missed your presence on the board today.

Uhh, I'm obstinate. Plus I'm not allowed to reason with family so I have to release some energy on JWN.

I'm not a true atheist, per se. Not sure what I am but I think the "nontheist" or "humanist" would be close if I had to wear a label.

I feel quite certain that the Bible and other Abrahamic holy books are the product of primitive human minds, nothing more. And I have no real confidence that there is/was a superhuman creator but I do not completely rule out the possibility that some intelligence played a role in our existence way back when. These views range from deistic to pantheistic to pragmatic agnostic to atheistic, but never revert to traditional theism.

As far as how long it took... damn good question. Don't really recall. I remember losing faith in the Org in 2005 after finding the 607-587 discrepancy in an encyclopedia. Still held on to the Bible and Jesus for a while after that.... because I remember being offended by an atheist who mocked Christian beliefs after he overheard them mocking Scientologist beliefs.

Then I read The Age of Reason and realized I'd already started asking myself some of the same questions but was afraid to admit it. Like, at one point I felt sooo guilty because I started wondering why there was so much fuss about Jesus' sacrifice. I wondered what kind of lame sacrifice you're making if you know you'll see the one being sacrificed again (or you'll be alive again) in three days? How long is three days to a being who has existed for an eternity?

Thomas Paine just made me comfortable with questioning the Bible. And for that I am thankful.

cyberjesus

thanks for replying. u must come to la n visit. we ll spend a day talking n taking piX

cyberjesus

i loved my jehovah..... but once some1 pointed out my fallacies i had no choice but to bow down n realize my foolishness. 1 day i was thanking god for orgasms the next i was fully preaching atheism

PSacramento

SBC,

Instead of going over all your points, all very well expalined and though out and quite correct from a certain POV, one by one, allow me to answer this way:

The bible is a book, written by Man and in that book we have God's divine word as MAN UNDERSTOOD it to the best of his capacity at THAT time.

God does not and never has, forced his "omnisience" on anyone, the results would be quite deadly I would think.

The bible is but ONE part of God's divine revelation, the universe we live in, His Son and the HS are the other parts and with only ONE part we get only part of the grand revelation, and as such, it is incomplete and even incoherent at times.

God accomdate his revelation to Man and continues to do so, when Man is able to understand more, as we are, we truly do understand more.

It was quite logical for the ancient writer of Genesis to think that God sent the flood that killed "all of mankind", why would he think that if he believed that God had a hand in everything?

It was quite logical for ancient man to believe that God ordained the victory and slaughter of his enemies when that was what happened, just as it was quite logical for them to believe God was displeased and angey with them when the samething happend to them.

The bible shows us a progressive revelation of God, hence the seeminly contridictory God of the NT VS the God of the OT.

The Apostles took the OT and went beyond, just as Jesus did, and those after them, went even further with discussion of the cosmos, physics and so forth.

And that was fine because while the bible canon was closed, the work of God and the HS to reveal God to the world continued and continues to this day.

BUT that revelation will never be absolute for all because that would endanger the one thing that God truly desires - The aporachment to God via free will.

Let's be very clear here, IF God came out in all his wonderous glory, the free will that we would have to believe or not would be removed.

As for Thomas, Jesus choose to clear his doubts to teach him, and the others, a valuable lesson - Blessed are those that don't see and believe, why?

Because while Thomas received the HS after the proof of his eyes and touch, those the belief without seeing ( that dosn't mean without evidence though) receive it then.

trevor

Let's be very clear here, IF God came out in all his wonderous glory, the free will that we would have to believe or not would be removed.

According to the Bible, angels have never had the free will that you believe is essential for humans to have. Angels have always known of god's existence as they are said they reside with Him. Some, still decided to rebel.

Why are we mere mortals not offered such certainty? I would much prefer to have proof that God exists, than to be left wondering if the whole concept of God is a hoax. I would be delighted to discover that a benign, just and loving being was in charge of the universe.

Alas I have to rely on other people telling me that God exists and speaks to them, and this Chanel of communication makes the Bible optional. I guess I was born on the wrong side of the railway track.

PSacramento

According to the Bible, angels have never had the free will that you believe is essential for humans to have. Angels have always known of god's existence as they are said they reside with Him. Some, still decided to rebel.

If they decided to rebel then they obviosuly had free will.

Why are we mere mortals not offered such certainty? I would much prefer to have proof that God exists than to be left wondering if the whole concept of God is a hoax. I would be delighted to discover that a benign, just and loving being was in charge of the universe.

Angels were privy to Gof before man, man was privy to God before "our fall", perhaps God decided that since THAT way didn't work, maybe he'd try a different way?

Alas I have to rely on other people telling me that God speaks to them and this Chanel of communication makes the Bible optional. I guess I was born on the wrong side of the railway track.

No, you weren't, we are all born with the capacity to know God, we just have a lot of "noise" going around in our heards and hearts.

There is a reason God reminds us to "Be still and know that I AM".

For years I asked and prayed for God to make himself known to me, well...I should be honest and say that I yelled and demanded to know WHY things were the way they were and why God * waves accusatory finger* didn't fix it !!

I can't speak for anyone but myself but, when the time came, it came and it wasn't when I expected and it wasn't when I wanted it, but it was when I was ready.

trevor

PSacramento Thank you for your reply. It is an honest and heart-felt testimonial to what you believe to be true. I can't argue with that, and more importantly, I don't want to. (In all fairness, I should tell you that I used to post as The Gladiator but have returned to posting under my original and real name)

You have shared many of your beliefs, and reasons for believing, with me. I still find your method of arriving at conclusions confusing and at times contradictory. That's my subjective impression. You also have a subjective impression of 'God' that fulfills your needs and hopes. As I have said many times, I hope it continues to work for you. The alternative is less than ideal.

Mad Sweeney

An almighty, external god wouldn't need us to be ready. He's have the ability to answer our request instantly regardless of our mental or spiritual state.

So the questions arise: Does the being people call god lack such ability, meaning he isn't omnipotent or omniscient or he's lacking in some way? Or is the being people call god actually simply a metaphor for something that is already within us and that really does need us to be mentally and spiritually ready for in order to experience?

PSacramento

You have shared many of your beliefs, and reasons for believing, with me. I still find your method of arriving at conclusions confusing and at times contradictory. That's my subjective impression. You also have a subjective impression of 'God' that fulfills your needs and hopes. As I have said many times, I hope it continues to work for you. The alternative is less than ideal.

Welcome back Bro :)

I have no issues and can see how it can seem contridictory at times, especially from a JW/Former JW/ former Fundi/Fundi POV.

Can I suggest a reading for you?

Kenton Sparks: "God's Word in Human Words".

It can help make it clear why those of Us that don't view the bible as inerrant and yet set view it as important, do so.

PSacramento

An almighty, external god wouldn't need us to be ready. He's have the ability to answer our request instantly regardless of our mental or spiritual state.

I don't agree, I would think that God "coming crashing in" when we are nt ready would not be the best way to go.

So the questions arise: Does the being people call god lack such ability, meaning he isn't omnipotent or omniscient or he's lacking in some way? Or is the being people call god actually simply a metaphor for something that is already within us and that really does need us to be mentally and spiritually ready for in order to experience?

It could be a combination of Both even.

God being all knowing doesn't necessarily mean omniscient, God may just know all that can be know at any given time, or God, since he is outside time, can see the present, past and future all at once and see all possible choices and results and still not "know" which ONE of those choices we will make but knwo the consequences of each and everyone.

Neverending Story.. (just another Bible/God debate)

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