Jack Barr, immortal? More from the Watchtower of May 15, 2011

by dgp 45 Replies latest social humour

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  DaCheech

  I showed my mom the f-ing glory article on Jaracz.................. she lightly agreed with my take.............

  burns me up! average JW dies, and they get a laughter filled memorial.............. one of them dies, and they get sainthood and glory
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  Quandry

  Hold on there.....aren't they being a bit hasty?

  After all, the memorial partaker numbers are WAAAAAAAYYY up, meaning an awfully large number of those 144,000 have been unfaithful and need replacing, as it could not possibly be that they got the teaching wrong. Shouldn't they look into that before automatically presuming that any of the annointed that die are judged worthy of immortality?
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  The Finger

  leolaia said,

  "But it is not the same thing as resurrection, as there is no continuity of existence between the person who died and the person who is recreated from God's memory. It doesn't matter how brief the interval is if death is nonexistence, as the Society teaches"

  This brief interval, "changed in the twinkling of an eye" when the anointed experience death surely means then that really JW's teach that nobody goes to heaven. There is a new entity created in heaven with the memories and personality of the deceased, which surely nullifies the ransom.
• 

  dgp

  Farkel: I think I will have to agree with you.

  You know, I'm of course not an expert in JW things. But,

  1) I see that many of you posted differently about whether one of the anointed would be resurrected, or not. It doesn't surprise me, because of so many new lights, but it seems to suggest that there isn't even agreement as to what is supposed to happen when one of the anointed dies.

  I think that there is something we should be very clear about. If you know death, even for the shortest period of time possible, then by definition you're not IMMORTAL. Maybe you will be resurrected, or recreated, or whatever, but immortal you are not.

  This brings another problem. If I am RECREATED, how the hell am I the same I used to be? As of this moment, and Jehovah will correct me if I'm wrong (well, he won't, but you guys will), I'm body and "a breath of life". My body will rot. I'll finally become another Richard Gere, because I'll go"breathless". When recreated or resurrected, in what way will I be the same as I was?

  I also think that sometimes we need to push Watchtower-ology to a side and interpret these things as simply the needs of an organization.

  Jack Barr was one of the anointed, and a member of the Governing Body. As such, he was not the ordinary witness. Is it convenient for the Watchtower to say that he didn't become immortal, is not enjoying the presence of Jehovah, et cetera? Of course not. To say that he may have swept some dust under the rug, that no person on earth noticed (but Jehovah did), is to say that these men are after all as sinful as anyone else, and maybe the doctrines they force others to believe are more than a bit tainted.

  I remember the joke about the man who goes to a party with two prostitutes, one in each arm. The doorkeeper says that the wives of the gentlemen inside just don't want to mix with two women of dubious morals. To which the man retorts that the ones with him are prostitutes, all right, meaning their morals is certain. On the other hand, the morals of some of the wives of his fellow club members, that he knows to be very dubious. The joke ends without us knowing whether the man actually went inside with these two ladies of undubious morals, but the point is, the doorkeeper and the people inside were all hypocrites.

  As in this joke, the unimprovable relationship of the governing body with Jehovah just has to be considered beyond question. Otherwise, the whole deck of cards cannot stand. Are we to suppose that Jehovah would anoint a man of questionable morals, say? Ergo, the man enjoys all heavenly rewards.

  Let me play the devil's advocate here, and take the side of the Governing Body (which is playing the devil, not just his advocate). If we were convinced Jehovah's witnesses, where would this leave us if we thought about the governing body members who were expelled?

  Now, let's talk about something very different. Say a brother with perfect standing in the congregation is a real drunk, and has sex with one woman from his congregation. The wife does not complain because she loves the elder, after all. So, no one finds out about his escapades and his drinking, and dies in perfectly good standing with the congregation. Ahahaha, men he will deceive, but Jehovah, he won't! He won't be resurrected, damned bastard. OK.

  If we were to suppose that Brother Drinker would go to the Heavens simply because he wasn't disfellowshipped, then Jehovah would be a fool. But, he's not! He'll punish the cheater, but the governing body member, erm, he won't. They have a special relationship to him.

  If we were to say that Jehovah is not that bad a guy, and the anointed or governing body member who stepped aside will be punished, but, with the evidence at hand, Mr. Barr will surely go to the heavens, then, arent' the publishers of the magazine "running ahead of Jehovah" by stating he is there, instead of merely saying "We believe he's there"?

  This also seems to make the whole idea of resurrection a matter of Jehovah's whim. I anoint you, for reasons that only I know; then, you may lose your capacity as such, or not. But if I think you're a bad guy after all, you're not recreated or resurrected. Now, if I didn't have the whim to anoint you, you may as well be resurrected, recreated, but to live on Earth. Why would he have two kinds of guys?
• 

  Mary

  dgp does bring up another valid point though. Since the body is not raised and they do NOT beleive in an immortal soul what exactly is raised, what exactly becomes immortal. What is it that puts on immortality??

  This is major problem for the Writing Department (as are most of their doctrines when scrutinized). According to WT theology, when an 'annointed one dies, their body dies but they don't have an immortal soul or spirit that carries on, but instead they are um, 'transformed into a new spiritual being who is now immortal and will live with Jesus forever.' My question to that is: if it is not actually an 'immortal soul' but simply a brand new creation that had no link to the physical body, how would they retain their memories of being a human? How would they know who or what they are if it was all brand spankin' new to them at the moment of death. Wouldn't they be as much in the dark as what Adam was when he was first created?

  It's obvious that as per usual, the Society likes to twist the scriptures to suit their pre-conceived doctrines. It is obvious that the New Testament clearly teaches that when a person dies, their spirit goes on and this applies to all Christians, not just a 'select few'. Now whether this actually happens or not is another story, but I've always found it bizarre and incredible how they can ignore scriptures like:

  "fear not those that kill the body, but cannot kill the soul" ---Matthew 10:28

  For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you." (Phillipians 1:23-24)

  We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:8)

  And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luke 16:19-28)

  But he [Stephen], being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God........ And they stoned Stephen, who called upon God saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (Acts 7:54-59)

  None of these scriptures fit with the Society's view that 99.9% of Christians just go to sleep when they die, but since when did they ever care about what the bible says?
• 

  Mary

  And geeze......why are they doing artwork that has connections with other ancient gods or goddesses like Venus, or the Ancient Egyptian god Griffin:

  

  
• 

  therevealer

  ***it-2p.786Resurrection***

  Peter also describes the hope such ones possess as "precious and very grand promises, that through these you may become sharers in divine nature." (2Pe 1:4) They must undergo a change of nature, giving up human nature to obtain "divine" nature, thus sharing with Christ in his glory. They must die a death like Christ's-maintaining integrity and giving up human life forever-and then they receive immortal, incorruptible bodies like Christ's by a resurrection. (Ro 6:3-5; 1Co 15:50-57; 2Co 5:1-3) The apostle Paul explains that it is not the body that is resurrected, but rather, he likens their experience to the planting and sprouting of a seed, in that "God gives it a body just as it has pleased him." (1Co 15:35-40) It is the soul, the person, that is resurrected, with a body to suit the environment into which God resurrects him.

  Here is found a very clear explanation. Notice it is not the body, but there is a body and there is no immortal soul but the soul is resurrected to immortal life (of course this is the soul, the person, not the soul ______ fill in the blanks). And notice too that they must die a death like Christ's, but of course not really like Christ's as in a horrific death but rather simply maintaining integrity and giving up human life forever. Here we are back to how can they make the determination for Jehovah that Barr achieved that. And if you want to look at there pet scripture, Ezekiel 18:4 to prove that the soul is indeed mortal, (here of course referring to the soul that is not merely the person but something more than that) it is interesting how they use this reference ***w103/15p.28QuestionsFromReaders***DoesEzekiel18:20,whichsaysthat"asonhimselfwillbearnothingbecauseoftheerrorofthefather,"contradictExodus20:5,whichsaysthatJehovahbrings"punishmentfortheerroroffathersuponsons"? Notice in this article they show or say that there pet proof scripture is really talking about the soul that is the person.

  If you find this all convoluted and confusing I do not think it is because of my bad. I think it is just that.
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  Leolaia

  If this is thread has become unreadable because of the last post, go to the top and click the narrow margins up at "Options".
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  mindmelda

  Must be good to be a king. LOL
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  VM44

  There is a Perry Rhodan PC game called "The Immortals of Terra."