I'm a new study, need advice.

by Resistance is Futile 38 Replies latest jw friends

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  Mad Sweeney

  Make them show you proof for 1914, where they will show you calculation how they got to 1914.

  This happened to me about 12 years ago when I was very active studying with a smart young college kid. After I had explained the JW view I felt like it may well be the dumbest load of crap that ever came out of my mouth. It was embarrassing because the kid wasn't buying it and JWs aren't prepared to deal with smart people who don't succumb to the programming. Another thing about it was that he asked about it fairly early on (like within the second month of the study, maybe), not late in the book where it is dropped on the victims after they're already mentally conditioned to accept everything. He didn't tell me anything, he asked and expected me to provide an answer.

  Obviously this didn't immediately make me leave the organization (it was over a decade later, in fact) but it has to have been a significant early experience or I wouldn't remember it so vividly. I think the cognitive dissonance he caused by making me explain something in detail that doesn't stand to reason was one of the real successful blows to the blind faith in the WT organization that I was raised to have.

  Also, in relation to 1914, once they explain the doctrine and how they get the number, assess how uncomfortable it made them and then a couple weeks later tell them you've been thinking about it and since you're interested in the historical accuracy of the Bible, you can push the point further by asking where in the Bible you can find the date 607 (which is their start-off point for counting down to 1914). When they explain that, and it sounds overly complex and unsupported, then you can hit them with the question of listing the kings of Babylon counting back from 539 to 607. All the information to do so is in the Watchtower Library CD-ROM, but the issue they'll run in to is that their kings' reigns only lead them back to 587, the secularly known date for the destruction of Jerusalem, not 607 the Watchtower manufactured date.

  Anyway, ask questions but don't try to tell him anything. Black Sheep has excellent advice on this sort of stuff.
• 

  Quandry

  Welcome.

  I'd say you are in the right place to become armed with information. Please study the history of JWs. I wish that I had done this so many years ago. Had I known that CT Russell got the date for 1914 from measuring the steps in a pyramid, and that his first calculations for Jesus' presence pointed to 1874, etc., I might not have spent the next 33 years as a JW.

  Maybe the person you are "studying" with doesn't know some of the more "interesting" facts about the past. How's this one....at one time the JWs believed taking a vaccination was "like putting pus into the body."

  Or they don't know that the WTS taught...and maybe still does....that since dinosaurs lived before the flood, they didn't eat meat.....I guess T Rex had those big teeth to attack and eat giant fern!
• 

  pirata

  I remember it said attempt to talk to the persons pre-cult identity. What if they were born into the cult, how would you approach it then?

  A better term for "pre-cult self" may be the "authentic self". This is the part of their identity that may see logical flaws in their beliefs, but shove it to the back of their minds. Or they learn to play a new instrument, or get married, or have kids, but are putting it off until the new system so they can pioneer now, etc. It's what they are underneath the "cult identity".
• 

  InterestedOne

  I agree with Black Sheep. I'm midway through a study, and everything he said is what I have experienced. I made some of the mistakes he warned you about. As he phrased it, my study conductor is in damage control mode with me.
• 

  Ding

  A lot of people who thought they would never get sucked into the WTS ended up as WT slaves.

  My advice is to get out of the study now.

  If you're determined to go through with it, make sure you're honest with yourself every step of the way.

  Be aware of how your attitude toward the WTS changes.

  When the whole WT system starts to seem biblical and make logical sense, that's a sign that the mind control you thought you were wise enough to resist is much farther along than you ever thought possible.

  If that happens, no matter what you think or feel, hit the eject button and end the study cold turkey.

  As I said above, your best course is to hit that button right now.
• 

  diamondiiz

  Just adding to what Black Sheep posted is that, it is true1919 is the magic year for the faithful slave being supposedly appointed but you can't get to 1919 without 607BC destruction of Jerusalem. For u,s who know this crap 1919 stands out as a special date and how it was derived, even that is still confusing as hell to me. So basically:

  607BC is the key because without 607BC you don't get 1914 and without 1914 you can't get 1919 and without 1919 the leadership of wts is self appointed group.

  If I remember correctly without going and checking the actual calculation and scriptures used it goes something like:

  Oct.1914 Jesus returned and 3.5 times (3.5 years) passed before Jesus inspected the temple which occurred in 1918 spring where Rutherford and the other assholes were imprisoned and went into a death-like state only to be chosen in 1919 by Jesus as faithful steward and Christendom officially lost their favor with God and Jesus in 1919. The dubs use scriptures to support the 3.5 years as literal and another scripture to apply for the other short time frame as symbolic. I don't remember if it's the 2 witnesses of Revelation or not but it's a stupid and confusing explanation that only an indoctrinated witness will find making sense. That is why when they study with people they first show them how wrong trinity, hellfire and imortal soul are before they move onto the dates. They need a student already partially indoctrinated who already starts to trust the wts as truthful before they can sell them BS idea of dates.
• 

  Franklin Massey

  Welcome. Your reasons for being here and going through with the study are admirable.

  I don't think there's a silver bullet for you here. I would suggest that you get to know the conductor on a personal level. Make time to talk before and after the study. Ask to change the study to different locations, like in a park or at a restaurant. Find out what their likes, interests, and spiritual hot buttons are. The more you know about the conductor, the better you will be able to reach them.

  Basically what I’m doing with my in-law is playing stupid, so that I can get him to explain some of the more illogical beliefs to me. I’m hoping that as he explains things out loud to someone who knows the right questions to ask he’ll begin to slowly realize that a lot of the things he’s been taught and forced to accept without question are not actually based on logic or reason.

  Brilliant! Don't let them read the answers to deep JW questions from the book. Keep aksing them questions about their responses. Prepare in advance and have some hypothetical questions of your own ready. Test the application of JW rules in tricky modern situations. Get them thinking and make sure they leave the study thinking.
• 

  Millions

  Hey - my two cents: the further along you get in a study situation, the bigger the reaction will be when you stop. I think it's far more powerful to show how good life is for you outside the cult, than try and persuade someone that their cherished beliefs are wrong. If anything, I would focus on your genuine relationship with this person if there is one; your showing interest in the beliefs is just a reaffirmation that it is something worth holding onto. Show them instead that life is wonderful without their control system.

  If you present material that directly goes against doctrine, a well-conditioned JW will just get alarm bells ringing and back off. If you continuously appear to be challenging things, the cumulative effect over time will be the same. These people are interested in 'saving' lives, and that includes their own if you appear to be endangering their eternal future in some way. Any discomfort you cause them is like wounding an animal, they just turn tail and run. Or worse they attack you.

  It sounds to me like this relative is pretty full-on, and if you know they are likely to high-tail it out of there if you get too heavy, chances are they are too conditioned to respond to an external prompting. We all have relatives that at the present time we can simply do nothing about - they are stuck fast in the faith. Maybe only a random event will shake their resolve - possibly a good deed from someone outside the cong, or a tragedy, or a bad experience at the hands of the elders. Anything like that.

  I don't harbour any fears of you getting sucked right in, as you are forewarned by your spouse's experiences. It's simply best to stay friendly if you can, make them relaxed, then watch for any cracks that might appear by themselves. Imo the essential factor is that people initiate their exit by themselves. Otherwise you engender a feeling of coercion, which can lead to them going back after realising it wasn't entirely their own decision to leave.

  Focus on the positives in your own life, they will naturally start to look at their own situation and wonder why they are so tired/stressed/guilty all the time. Is it really because followers of Christ will be persecuted..? the cogs start turning.

  Whatever happens, stay patient - it can be a long road. All the best =)
• 

  Resistance is Futile

  Thanks everyone for the great advice. It's somewhat ironic that they want to pull me into the Cult, while at the same time I'm showing interest simply because I’d love to see them escape.
• 

  sabastious

  Thanks everyone for the great advice. It's somewhat ironic that they want to pull me into the Cult, while at the same time I'm showing interest simply because I’d love to see them escape.

  The world is a quirky place sometimes :)

  -Sab