The Lies Keep Getting
Brighter and Brighter
V illabolo
The Gentile Times Reconsidered
by Spade 382 Replies latest watchtower bible
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saltyoldlady
Spade - What led me out of the WTS was this very investigation. I decided to let the Bible give me the answer and dispense with anyone else (though I love C.O. Jonnson's book frankly) but the Bible alone proves 587 - not 607. If you would like to pursue that with me I'd be delighted but I will start a new thread on Bible Chronology itself -
In the meantime all the pictorial proofs from the library in this thread are going into my favorites section - I love them.
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DanaBug
They do not necessarily accurately represent the species evolutionary history.The data on which they are based is noisy; the analysis can be confounded by horizontal gene transfer, hybridisation between species that were not nearest neighbors on the tree before hybridisation takes place, convergent evolution, and conserved sequences.
But do you understand how that doesn't disprove it? And there's also the mountains of evidence outside of mitochondrial DNA for the age of humans being a lot longer than 6000 years. Seriously, look into it. It's fascinating stuff. Nat Geo did a documentary on it and they have a website about it too.
But anyways, I'm off to bed. Have fun ignoring stuff! You never did get back to me on that other thread, that list of signs of a dangerous group. Maybe I'll bump it tomorrow.
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bohm
Debator,
Although phylogenetic trees produced on the basis of sequenced genes or genomic data in different species can provide evolutionary insight, they have important limitations. They do not necessarily accurately represent the species evolutionary history.The data on which they are based is noisy; the analysis can be confounded by horizontal gene transfer, hybridisation between species that were not nearest neighbors on the tree before hybridisation takes place, convergent evolution, and conserved sequences.
I would characterize myself as someone with more than a working knowledge in this field, given i have developed my own algorithm for doing something similar. In other words, i am happy to meet a person who apparently have some knowledge in the field and are willing to question the consencus.
It is quite true what you highlight; the data is noisy and the posterior will reflect the noise. Said in another way, the model will fit the data rather poorly. In other words, the noise has the effect of discrediting a phylogenetic model compared to other models, eg. a model based on biblical kinds. Thus it become even more remarkable the various phylognetical reconstructions, based on different kind of genetic data, agree to such a high degree, and that they do not favor a biblical kind-like modelling hypothesis.
Furthermore quantizing the effect of HGT, conserved sequences, etc. is ofcourse a field of study which is being persued agressively, see eg.
Identification of Horizontal Gene Transfer from Phylogenetic Gene Trees http://www.springerlink.com/content/w22575448864j5mu/
If you object on the grounds that phylognetic reconstruction has not been tested against a biblical kinds-like hypothesis, i would suggest you look at this nature paper:
http://xcelab.net/rm/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/common-ancestery-AIC-test-paper.pdf
(http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v465/n7295/full/nature09014.html)
where the assumptions are tested against each other using standard measures of model comparison. i would like you to quantify exactly what effects invalidate their result, specifically which noise effects there is in the data which favor a phylogenetic tree over a (true) biblical kinds-like model (which are the two they test against each other).
As it is now you seem to explain away an effect by an argument which (if it is true) make the effect even more remarkable. I wonder if you are aware of that.
I would also briefly note that once again we are in the situation that science has provided a testable, falsifiable hypothesis which it support with an immense statistical material of different kinds, where it does not seem that you even provide a hypothesis. What kind of statistical work on phylogenetics would in your oppinion discredit the biblical kind-model?
ps.
Since you mention HGT, are you saying the sequences in the human genomen which look like retroviral insertions or other HGT effects actually are retroviral insertions or other HGT effects? im ofcourse asking because if this is the case, one do have to wonder why they appear in a way which exactly support the evolutionary history; and if it is not the case, I do wonder how you can use eg. retroviral insertions and other HGT effects to discredit evolution when you have not believed these events have occured in the first place; to me it seem a bit like saying the sky is blue because the pixies i dont believe in painted it blue, but i dont want to put words in your mouth...
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villabolo
Leolaia to the rescue!
Villabolo
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bohm
I realize i am a bit offtopic and has started a seperate thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/206706/1/Calling-Spade-out-of-phylogenetics
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Black Sheep
Cross referencing Ezra with Josephus has the Jews returned to Jerusalem in 538 B.C.
Take AlanF's challenge at http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/118291/1/Fact-Jews-Returned-In-538-BC-Kills-Off-Watchtower-Chronology
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jookbeard
Alice ; the reason folks are not answering your OP is like you always do ,the content is too long , too cut and pasted and too boring dont you get the hint FFS?
Alice also you have just given a fantastic advertising slot for Mr Carl Olaf Jonson's fine works I'm sure he will be very happy and would want to thank you for it , 3 pages and probably hundreds of views he probably has not had coverage like this for years, and while people are here they may want to find out about his other fine publication THE SIGN OF THE LAST DAYS,WHEN? COMMENTARY PRESS.
What is his motivation?
Stab in the dark Alice is that he may have an interest in exposing the lies and failed prophecy that is promoted by a high control dangerous religious cult such as The WTS who have a history of failure in this area thus helping those like myself and the many other thousands who have been able to turn our back on this terrible cult JAT.
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Black Sheep
What is his motivation?
Some people insult those who disagree with them by questioning character or motives instead of focusing on the facts. http://www.watchtower.org/e/20000622/article_02.htm
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Joey Jo-Jo
Spade, Carl's book (last revision) also reviews Rolf Furuli's first volume, its a lengthy review and interesting.
And, lets say satan made all this 586BCE up, even then without secular data you will still find huge cheese holes in the JW theology (also in carl's book), I even found a scripture in the WT bible-OT which reads differently from all the other bibles.