"We are all atheists ... (page 4)

Curtains

so then, nikolas, if babies are atheists at birth, where on the scale of 1-10 would you locate them. Is dawkins saying that lack of specific knowledge is lack of belief. There is something wrong here but I can't quite put my finger on it.

PSacramento

Yup, that's why I thought about you as I read it. The thesis that faith does harm to the world would be an interesting topic for another thread.

In his book, " the irrational atheist", Vox Day puts the kaibosh to Harris views and doe sit with STATS and facts.

An interesting read, if you ignore Day's tendency for "personal attacks" on Harris, Dawkins and others.

The funny thing is that , while he does attack them personally at times ( much liek Harris and them do to believers in their books), he tends to bakc up his attacks, even the personal ones, with facts.

Curtains

psac, I'm always interested in arguments for and against so will try and see if that book is available to download to my kindle.

Nickolas

In his book, " the irrational atheist", Vox Day

I will read it, thanks, and do my best not to dismiss what he has to say when he goes off topic with character attacks.

PSacramento

If you can get past Day's tendency to insult and be rather brash ( it's his style, much like Hitchens), you will find stats and facts that pretty much answer all of the points raised by Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens and others.

You may not agree with soem of the conclusions of course, but the stats and evidence and facts are clearley laid out.

SweetBabyCheezits

Tammy in her rejection of conventional religious teaching is approaching deism. None of these labels is derogatory.

Nick, I'm sure she'll be able to clarify better when she logs back on later but Tammy feels she has a personal relationship with Christ. I'd say she practices a unique, individual form of Christianity and to imply she is in any way "approaching deism" might be offensive. At it's most basic level, deism rejects belief in a personal, intervening god. Tammy most certainly does not. While she rejects the mainstream evangelical machine, she absolutely adheres to the words attributed to Jesus.

Of course, I could be mistaken... this is just what I've gathered from our discussions.

SweetBabyCheezits

so then, nikolas, if babies are atheists at birth, where on the scale of 1-10 would you locate them. Is dawkins saying that lack of specific knowledge is lack of belief. There is something wrong here but I can't quite put my finger on it.

Hi, Curtains, I realize your comments weren't addressed to me but I thought you might appreciate the explanation found in the YouTube on the thread below. It contains what I feel is a balanced view of the "babies as atheists" idea because, in a way, that does seem like a cheap shot to use an infant's general ignorance of the world in support of atheism. (Though I've used it before, too.)

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/206583/1/Great-video-on-atheism-vs-agnosticism

Curtains

thanks sweetbabycheezits, I am mostly an atheist but tend to try and look at things from the point of view of a believer as I have been a strong believer. I do wonder if Dawkins has ever been a believer in his childhood for example.

Curtains

made a note of ideas I like and agree with from the youtube

a belief can be indeterminate

men educated in the critical habit of thought are slow to believe

merely having a belief is no indicator of your having thought about something

having beliefs grants no one priviliged status

absence of belief in god simply means gods don't feature in the things I believe exist

I like the last statment best because to me it says there is no void in an atheist's life - his/her life is full. This is also true of babies.

SweetBabyCheezits

Yeah, all excellent points that I feel come from a well-balanced perspective.

"We are all atheists ...

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