@boyzone:
I read Redrose' message to you and your latest reply to it. For the life of me I can't figure out why you've taken it personally??
What do you mean? I know neither you nor @redredrose, so it's really not possible for me to take anything said by anyone in this thread, not even what you might say to me here, "personally." The OP asked for advice, and this is what some here have given, while others here are commenting on the advice given, and I don't believe that any of these folks are guilty of taking what is being said by others "personally" either. Do you have a real question that you wish to ask me?
Your experience isn't everybody [else's]. Your elders aren't the same as others. Your family isn't the same as others.
That is kind of the point I was making to @redredrose. I'm happy you managed to figure this out on your own.
Empathy and understanding isn't one of your strong points is it?
What do you mean by "empathy" and "understanding"? I find that answering such questions to often be a way to avoid misunderstandings that might otherwise occur were I not to have asked them.
@streets76:
That's how you stop being a JW. Just fucking stop showing up! That's what I did years and years ago. Turns out, nobody gave a shit. My mom didn't care, my brother didn't care, lifelong friends at the KH didn't care -- they were all too busy leading their miserable JW lives to even take much notice. Nobody came around asking questions.
Full disclosure: I was a lifelong JW, but not baptised. Your mileage may vary.
How do you figure that you were one of Jehovah's Witnesses? You weren't. If you had been studying the Bible with someone, then I agree that someone should have taken notice when you stopped attending meetings, and in a perfect world, such an inquiry would have occurred. You can read for yourself Jesus' own words here, which I've quoted from Mark 16:16:
He that believes and is baptized will be saved, but he that does not believe will be condemned.
See there: "He that believes and is baptized will be saved." So, if you were raised in a Christian home, but had not made the decision to dedicate yourself to Jehovah to do His will, which is to become a follower of His Son, Jesus Christ, and symbolize your dedication by water baptism, then you are not, and were not, one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and so you would be viewed the same as any unbaptized person that may have been or is currently studying the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses.
Someone in your household should have been in a position to notice, I suppose, when you stopped attending meetings, but I do not know your circumstances, and it does seem to me that one of the elders should have made inquiries as to why you weren't in attendance at meetings, but, like I said, in a perfect world, such inquiries would have been made.
However, @redredrose has been baptized in symbol of her dedication to Jehovah, so, unlike you, she is one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and so I must take a different view of her than I do of you. is a very different case than yours.
Now you may or may not recall that earlier in this thread I made the point to the OP that with her being a dedicated servant of God, she was issued a "white robe." I was there referring to Revelation 7:9, 13-15. Perhaps you are familiar somewhat with this passage, but, in particular, you will notice the reference to those standing before God's throne "arrayed in white robes," which robes were "made ... white in the blood of the Lamb."
These "white robes" that this "great crowd" is seen wearing by the apostle John symbolize non-anointed Christians, just like that "sheik" I mentioned in a previous post (Zechariah 9:6, 7), a Philistine sheik, not a Judean one, but someone that is accorded the very same standing before God as if this Philistine were a Judean, who are the "other sheep" of that third sheepfold at John 10:1-16, specifically verse 16, that are "one flock" under their "one shepherd," Jesus.
And, @streets76, because you have no "white robe," John would not have seen you standing before God's spiritual tabernacle rendering sacred service, day and night, before God's throne, for God simply doesn't permit just anyone to enter his temple where His servants render sacred service, day and night. John doesn't see you standing before God's throne, for only those arrayed in white robes are the ones he sees. These who are wearing the white robes "are the ones that come out of the great tribulation,"John says, and these are the ones who, like the anointed, "observe the commandments of God," the ones that had "the work of bearing witness to Jesus," this great crowd.
Because you were never issued a white robe, you were never one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
@djeggnog wrote:
Why, later on, Jesus appeared to Thomas, understanding perfectly that Thomas had doubts in his heart, doubting the fact that Jesus had been resurrected, and while some elders might in such a situation show themselves to be all upset over Thomas' attending meetings with the rest of the apostles that had no such doubts at all, breathing fire wanting to flex some theocratic muscle and kick Thomas out to the proverbial curb, as some might say, Jesus was a kindly elder, was he not? Jesus told Thomas to 'put his finger right into his hands where the nails had been, to inspect his hands, to look at them, to take his hand and see how far he could stick it into his side where one of the Roman soldiers had pierced him.' (John 20:27)
@drewcoul wrote:
BrotherDan makes a good point about this. Notice that Thomas said: 'put his finger right into his hands where the nails had been. How many nails were used? More than one? Obviously more than one. Is this consistent with Jesus being nailed to a stake or cross?
If this is an attempt to hijack someone else's thread, it's not working. I only mentioned this account to which you have referred here to make the point to the OP here (@redredrose) that elders today have the example of "a kindly elder" named Jesus as to the kind of patience and understanding he showed toward one of his own, the apostle Thomas, who had doubts. But, if you were following this thread closely, you would note that the OP shot me down, telling me, and I'm quoting her now:
I have no doubts!
I have to respect this and I do. It seems you want to hijack her thread to ask a question that isn't at all relevant to this one, but I'm not going to debate whether or not Jesus was nailed to a stake or a cross. As far as salvation is concerned, how many nails were used by the Romans is insignificant; the man was ultimately put to death, and this is why I, as a Christian, put my faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice, since he, a righteous person, died for unrighteous persons, surrendering his life in order to give me life. (Matthew 20:28; John 10:17, 18; 1 Peter 3:18) In fact, God has decreed the appointed times and set a day in which He will judge all mankind, living and dead, by a man, who He resurrected from the dead, which resurrection is what guarantees all Christians that our hope of living in that "day" is a sure hope. (Acts 17:26, 31; Hebrews 6:19)
Start a new thread and maybe I'll join it, but I am here making no promise to do so. It's possible that I'll join your thread were you to start it.
@lisaBObeesa wrote:
AND I was a 'raised in' adult who never was baptised.
@Nickolas wrote:
bingo.
I would incorporate the earlier comments I made to @streets76 to point out that because neither @streets76 nor @lisaBObeesa were ever baptized, then whatever "raised in" means doesn't mean that either of them were Jehovah's Witnesses. Without a "white robe," one cannot be serving God in his spiritual tabernacle where a white robe is required to enter.
@redredrose
Dj, really? You don't know where the 'top' is? Being an elder you are nowhere near the top, you are simply following instructions given you by the organization. This is an organization that has never had 'the truth', yet simply because they say they do have held their followers in quasi serfdom reaping the benefits of free labor and free money.
Like I said in a previous post, "I don't know about 'the top,' but I'm up there and there is nothing rotten up here." I suppose I'm up there somewhere, but "the top," as I understand it as far as the Christian congregation is concerned is Jesus; he's viewed as being the head of the congregation. While the elders as well as those not officially given congregational responsibilities -- and by this I mean both brothers and sisters alike -- are merely God's servants. You are free to take the view that the elders are at "the top" of something, but in Christ, those conducting themselves "as a lesser one ... is the one that is great" (John 13:4-8; Luke 9:48)
I do what I do in Christ without the expectation of receiving material compensation. I do what I do because of my love for people. Furthermore, I do not need money to motivate me to do God's will; it is by Him that I have "life and breath." (Acts 17:25) I don't follow you here. What "benefits" has anyone reaped?
Their policies have caused unnecessary deaths and horrible suffering for the victims of pedophiles.
What "policies"? If you are referring to the Bible prohibition that requires Christian to "abstain ... from blood," one must decide for himself or herself whether they wish to obey God in connection with this command as with any other command. Christian will either obey God's commands or he or she will not obey them. God knows this. You are no less a Christian because you discover in a time of trial or crisis that your faith is weaker than you thought it to be. And what is more horrible that someone's death? Family members generally mourn for days, weeks or even longer when someone in their family dies.
Throughout the history of mankind, @redredrose, billions of people have died at the hands of unrighteous men, and such murders as well as the rape of young children and of adults have left the victims and their families in tears, but Jehovah's Witnesses aren't the cause for such suffering in the world. If anyone should discover someone in their midst that has molested their child or someone else, all we can do in such cases is report such crimes to the police; that is all Jehovah's Witnesses can do. We have no other "policy."
No one is forced in God's organization to do anything that he or she does not wish to do. If anyone should be disfellowshipped for their lack of faith in this regard, Jehovah would know that is because that brother or that sister succumbed to their fear of death although Christ emancipate us from such fear (Hebrews 4:15); that they feared the loss of the loved ones in this life when there is no one that leaves their loved ones in this life "for the sake of the good news" that will not receive everlasting life "in the coming system of things." (Mark 10:29, 30)
It is in "the coming system of things" that you may get to see a world of righteousness where none of these things you mention here -- death and suffering and all the rest -- will exist. "The former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart." (Isaiah 65:17; Revelation 21:4)
It is up to the local elders to decide whether your decision to disobey God's command regarding blood was wilfully disobedient or based on a lack of faith on your part. Where it is some of the folks here have gotten the idea that someone's acceptance of a blood transfusion is on a par with apostasy or results in someone being summarily disfellowshipped doesn't come from someone that has an interest in truth.
And, what if a body of elders should wrongly decide to disfellowship someone for accepting a blood transfusion due to their lack of faith in the resurrection, that individual will eventually be reinstated, but he or she can rest assured that God knows the circumstances that led that individual to disobey his command to "abstain ... from blood" and He is an expert when it comes to forgiving folks their sins and he wants to do so.
Of course, no discipline ever feels good or "joyous, but "grievous." Yet it is by means of discipline, the kind of fruit that is yielded is righteousness. (Hebrews 12:10-13) The elders can only administer discipline 'according to what seems to good to them' at the time, but this is God's congregation and Jesus is the head of it (1 Timothy 3:5; Ephesians 5:23), and since Jehovah "has committed all the judging" to Jesus (John 5:22), we can be sure that Jesus is watching to see both what the elders are doing and what you are doing, even if the discipline you should receive would seem to be unfair, "grievous," at the time.
Should discipline be administered by the elders, the hope is that your faith will be stronger should you find yourself in the same position again, and the action itself reminds the congregation of its need to be obedient to God in everything, even when it's hard. It was hard being a Christian during World War II while incarcerated in a concentration camp in Nazi Germany knowing that a mere signature on a piece of paper -- your signature -- disassociating themselves from Jehovah and his organization was enough to extricate one from confinement. You are thinking about disassociating yourself from God's organization by sending a letter over your signature, but such an action on your part cannot be explained by your having a fear of death.
My leaving really had nothing to do with the elders but everything to do with the fact that I have been lied to all my life.
Ok.
@djeggnog wrote:
Likewise, this brother doesn't become guilty of apostasy until he begins to teach others to this effect. Now you may have your own opinions, but I've just humored you here by giving you mine.
@redredrose wrote:
That may be your opinion, but every other elder has one too. As you should know, situations are handled differently in each congregation so one BOE might agree with you, but another may not.
I understand this, which is why I suggested in another post that you speak to an elder in a different congregation than the one you are currently attending, even an elder in a congregation that belongs to a different circuit than the one in which your congregation belongs. Human beings, including you and I, are imperfect, and that is why Jesus wrote what things he did to the seven congregations at Revelation chapters 2 through 5. You should read these chapters thoroughly so that you might get the sense of what Jesus is saying to those congregations and to you. If you do not wish to do so, then I suppose you won't do so.
Over the years I've seen many arbitrary decisions made by BOE's and special committees. So your statements are [disingenuous] at best.
Please use just your own words. I'm a genius anyway (and an expert in making typos), so, really, your use of "big" words won't impress me if they aren't used correctly. Well, that's not really true: They will impress me as having been used incorrectly. If I should fail to understand something in one of your posts, I won't hesitate to seek a clarification. It's clear to me that your intent was to use the word "disingenuous," for the word "ingenuous" has a very different meaning than the one you used.
@djeggnog
