Great link, Moshe.
Redemption, Salvation, Atonement? The fly in the ointment
by SweetBabyCheezits 87 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
SweetBabyCheezits
If I understand the point of SBC's Thomas Paine quote, it's that while one person can pay another person's financial debt for another, justice does not allow one person to pay a moral debt of another. That is, the justice would allow Jesus to pay my mortgage but not to take my death sentence for me.
That's also my understanding.
Ding, I read your post but I'm thick-headed. Is there any way to clearly explain the logic of how a Christian's "rebirth" changes the original sin from a moral crime into a debt that can be paid by someone else? It's all very vague to me.
-
Ding
SBC,
These are called "identification" verses.
The WTS teaches that people can have their sins forgiven without coming into the New Covenant this way, so they don't teach these passages at all.
It's not just that Jesus died INSTEAD OF me but that I died WITH him -- this is what satisfies the moral debt.
That is, when a person is reborn spiritually, God places that person spiritually "in Christ" so that what happened to Christ also happened TO him -- crucified with Christ, died with Christ, buried with Christ, raised with Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:17: "Therefore, if anyone is IN CHRIST, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"
Galatians 2:20: "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."
John 6:56 "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains IN ME, and I IN HIM."John 15:5: "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains IN ME and I IN HIM, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."
Colossians 1:27: "To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory."
1 John 5:11-12: "And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is IN his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1 Corinthians 5:21: "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that IN HIM we might become the righteousness of God."Ephesians 1:7: "IN HIM we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace..."
Ephesians 3:12: "IN HIM and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence."
Philippians 3:8-9: "What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found IN HIM, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ-- the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith."
Colossians 2:9-14: "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and you have been given fullness IN CHRIST, who is the head over every power and authority. 11 IN HIM you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12 having been BURIED WITH HIM with him in baptism and RAISED WITH HIM with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you ALIVE WITH CHRIST. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross."
If you'd like to do a mini-study on "in Christ" and "in Him" verses, check these:
Romans 6:23; 8:1, 39; 12:5; 16:3, 7, 9, 10;
1 Corinthians 1:2, 4, 5, 30; 3:1; 15:18, 22;
2 Corinthians 1:20; 2:14; 3:14; 5:17, 21; 12:2;
Galatians 1:22; 2:4; 3:28; 5:6;
Ephesians 1:1,3, 4,11, 13; 2:6, 10, 13, 21, 22; 4:32
Philippians 1:1; 4:7, 21
Colossians 1:2; 28; 2:6, 7, 9-14, 17
1 Thessalonians 2:14; 4:14, 16
2 Timothy 2:10; 3:1
Philemon 6
1 Peter 5:14
1 John 2:5, 27, 28; 3:3, 6, 24; 4:13, 15, 16; 5:20
Revelation 1:9
-
-
tec
The innocent cannot stand in place of the guilty when it comes to a crime, even if they wanted to. If my wife commits a homicide, I cannot throw myself before the court and beg to take her death sentence upon myself.
I agree. But because that's how WE define and impart justice. So according to justice as we have defined it, a person cannot accept responsibility for someone else's moral crime. Although I think we do that all the time. Kids get into trouble, parents accept the blame for neglect or abuse, and work to make things right. We do it for husbands, parents, etc. But no, the law does not allow us to take criminal punishment for someone else.
Regardless, you're saying eye for eye isn't real justice. I'm saying the standard Christian view of atonement is WORSE than even just an eye for an eye. It claims that babies are - in context of this discussion - "criminals", by the nature of the fact that they inherit sin from their parents. This is twisted.... the antithesis of justice.
Honestly, I think the point about babies is moot. You already know I don't believe in a literal, eternal hell - so no baby is going there. But If you can name for me one person (besides Christ) who has never 'sinned', then I'll concede that it is unjust for that person to pay the price of 'sin'. But you can't do that, because there is no one like that.
Tammy
-
PSacramento
Okay, "criminal" doesn't appear in this thread until Psac post 7744. But that's neither here nor there. My point is we didn't define who the criminals are in the context of your questions about them. I quoted Thomas Paine who referred to a hypothetical situation in which he committed a "crime". But that was just an analogy.
You are right, I did use it first, sorry.
So I'm asking who is the criminal - in your opinion - in the context of the rest of your post here:
I used criminal in response to your original post where Paine said if he commited a crime ( which makes him a criminal).
But in regards to to the Fall of Man, the "criminal" would have been Adam ( if he was an individual) and the for us, as long as we continue to perptrate his crime against God, we also would be "criminals".
-
SweetBabyCheezits
TEC: But because that's how WE define and impart justice. So according to justice as we have defined it, a person cannot accept responsibility for someone else's moral crime.
Oh, okay, God doesn't have to play by our definition of justice, right? So he could be a child molester but, hey, heee's God. He can do whatever the hell he wants because his ways are so much higher than ours and we are in no position to be asking questions. Justice means... whatever he wants it to mean and none of us pesky humans have the right to assign any meaning to it. God will clue us in on the official standard of justice when he's good and damn well ready. Until then, we don't need to understand it. It's not relevant to our survival on this incubator planet.
If God's ways are so unlike our own that they must be fundamentally redefined, maybe man should pick words other than love, justice, wisdom, and power to describe him. As it is, the essence of words like justice gets lost in the enormous cloud of incomprehensibility we call "God".
TEC: Although I think we do that all the time. [accept responsibility for someone else's moral crime]
And that's not justice. That is partiality towards a loved one. Effectively it is injustice.
TEC: Honestly, I think the point about babies is moot. You already know I don't believe in a literal, eternal hell - so no baby is going there.
Wait, who is talking about hell? I'm talking about babies and children, right now, supposedly born into sin at no fault of their own, suffering on earth because grandpa Adam at the bad fruit. What kind of justice system requires or permits something like that? If Adam and Eve committed the crime against God, and then served their sentence and died, why is the rest of this necessary? Why couldn't he let their kids grow up in perfection and have free will and be accountable for themselves if they screw up? Or better yet, as OTWO said, why not just show mercy and forgive them without the dog and pony show? I'll suggest a reason - because it's make-believe. The Bible writers needed to tie their myth into reality and what we have is exactly what you'd expect from bronze-age goat herders.. stories full of holes, good vs evil, irrational superstition, contradicting passages, and an angry, vengeful (but loving!) God to tie it all together. Top it off with a reward if you believe vs punishment (or non-reward) if you don't.... What's a guy to do?
And you know what? As poorly thought-out as it was, you've gotta hand it to 'em: It's worked quite well.
-
tec
Oh, okay, God doesn't have to play by our definition of justice, right?
That isn't what I meant at all... I was just trying to make a point that just because its something we've traditionally accepted, doesn't make it right. I like to try and consider another alternative whenever I can imagine it. Such as: We allow someone to pay another person's financial debt, but not moral debt. Why? I don't really think God allows us to pay for one another's debts either (the soul who sins, and all that), but he can certainly forgive those debts (moral or otherwise), as can we. So perhaps that is not justice as we currently define it. But neither is eye for eye, which once WAS justice as we defined it.
I'm talking about babies and children, right now, supposedly born into sin at no fault of their own, suffering on earth because grandpa Adam at the bad fruit.
If Adam and Eve committed the crime against God, and then served their sentence and died, why is the rest of this necessary? Why couldn't he let their kids grow up in perfection and have free will and be accountable for themselves if they screw up?
Well, in practical terms, what does that mean, born into sin? I don't even know how I feel about that term. Through Adam and Eve sin entered the world - or at least THAT is what the gospels say. Doesn't mean people had to sin, I suppose. But it is a moot point because there is no one who does not sin. No one. Kind of tells me that Adam and Eve are representative of humanity (literal or symbolic), and that the choice they made is the same choice we all make.
I only brought up hell because I can't think of a possible consequence to a baby dying as still a baby without first having committed some wrong.
Tammy
-
SweetBabyCheezits
TEC: But neither is eye for eye, which once WAS justice as we defined it.
That's how God is said to have defined it... in the OT. Exodus 21:24, for example. Nvm. I forget that your concept of God kinda defies the OT description of him.
I don't really think God allows us to pay for one another's debts either (the soul who sins, and all that), but he can certainly forgive those debts (moral or otherwise), as can we.
So why not just forgive? Why does forgiveness have to be based on a blood sacrifice? Why not show mercy without the drama?
I only brought up hell because I can't think of a possible consequence to a baby dying as still a baby without first having committed some wrong.
I can't help but wonder something: If I'd died from SIDS as a baby, maybe I'd be getting an everlasting reward right now... but, instead, according to popular opinion, if I die now I'm going to hell. Or, according to JWs, everlasting unconsciousness.
Argh, I'm sorry, Tammy, I don't mean to jump on your views. The subject of "divine justice" is a sore spot for me right now. We heard yesterday that a couple we know lost their baby nearly at full term. In the last 3-4 years, that's the second couple we know that lost a baby late in the third trimester. Coincidentally, our daughter was born with a knot in her umbilical cord that easily could've cost her life. We were lucky. So I'm having a hard time separating my feelings out and that doesn't make for good judgment. I definitely don't mean to take it out on you.
Trevor/Gladiator mentioned that sometimes it's good to step back and take a break and I'm thinking I need to take a hint. Wise fella, that guy.
Peace, Tammy and Psacramento.
-
tec
I understand raw feelings, SBC, and we can always pick this back up another time if need be. Peace back to you.
Tammy